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Baroness Maddock: I thank the Minister for his clarification on Amendment No. 185C. It would
 
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appear that something similar to what I was requesting is actually in the Bill, but not being a lawyer, I find it quite difficult to interpret. I will look at the matter again and discuss it with others.

On Amendment No. 183A, again in trying to get to grips with how the legislation is written, I would have appreciated a little more clarification about how the 14 days works in the other two amendments to which I referred. In his reply, the Minister talked about how difficult this was to police, and said that that is why it had to be day one. However, some of it will be day 14, and somehow it will have to be policed. I will look carefully at what the Minister said and perhaps we will return to the issue.

Baroness Hanham: I too thank the Minister for his reply. I am bound to say that I think we will probably end up taking a different view on this throughout the Bill's passage.

The Minister made it very clear—it is becoming increasingly obvious—that this is an immensely bureaucratic system. When we get round to a system that is being policed, which is what the Minister now says it is, then we are really in considerable difficulty as regards the free marketing of a property. The fact that there is to be no flexibility about when the housing packs must be available is, if I may say so, rather foolish.

I do not think that the clauses to which the Minister referred, and the regulations which will perhaps come in to give some flexibility, are going to do the job at all. It seems perfectly reasonable to say that those who want to put their houses on the market can do so. They will then have a bit of time in which to finish off the bureaucratic information that must be made available. All this information, except for the home condition report, already has to be made available for the sale and purchase of any property.

I think the Minister may also be underestimating how long home condition reports will take to get done and, as I suggested yesterday, whether buyers will rely on those reports. We have not yet had any discussion about what integrity buyers will see in the reports and whether buyers will believe they can rely on what the reports say. It is likely that there will be double expenditure, with the buyer choosing to have yet another survey done, perhaps by a more qualified person than the home condition surveyor.

So, we do not agree with the Minister's view on this. I am sure that we shall return to the matter. For today, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendment No. 183A not moved.]

Baroness Hamwee moved Amendment No. 183B:

Page 94, line 40, at end insert "unless the property is marketed as being sold without a home information pack"

The noble Baroness said: In moving Amendment No. 183B I shall speak also to Amendment No. 185A.
 
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During these exchanges, I have mused on the fact that, had the Minister been a partner in my solicitors practice, which in itself is quite an interesting thought, he would probably have been one of those who used to say of domestic conveyancers—never, of course, one of our own partners—"They spend all their time asking questions like, 'Does the property have a roof?' And, if they are on the other side, 'The purchaser should rely on inspections'". I say that because I accept a little of what he says about the cumbersome nature of the process.

I suggested that the two amendments should be grouped with the last group that we debated last night on "voluntarism"—I cannot think of another word for it. Despite my request, that did not happen. I am moving the first one today because the Minister may have something to add to the issue. However, I shall not rehearse now the arguments for a voluntary home information pack.

However, I should like to pick up one point that the Minister has mentioned several times. It is relevant to this debate, and I for one have not yet got my head around it. The Minister talked about a dry run before the pack becomes compulsory. I have not yet understood how the dry run is to happen unless we have a voluntary scheme before the commencement orders bite. When the noble Lord replies, I should be grateful if he would explain just how he will ensure that there is a dry run without the problem that he has used to counter the arguments against a voluntary scheme.

These two amendments provide that a seller can choose to sell without a home information pack. It may well be that a seller would want to opt out for some of the reasons we have heard, and perhaps for others. I do not think that the buyer would be placed at a disadvantage as he will know that a pack is not available. If a buyer thinks a pack is so important that it affects his choice of property, he will not pursue his interest in that property.

The sellers may not want to provide a pack because of cost considerations—a matter which we have certainly more than touched on. The Government assume, if I understand this correctly, that the cost of compiling a pack will be absorbed by the selling agent until a sale goes through. That seems likely to put huge pressure on the agent to ensure that a sale does go through.

A number of noble Lords have expressed doubts about some estate agents, although not about all of them. But the profession as a whole has some way to go to up its reputation. There are some agents who would have a view to their own interests at least as much as to the interests of their clients and it sometimes seems to me that not every agent quite understands who his client is. I hope that the Minister can answer the specific point about a dry run and can add to it. I would hate to think that these are the killer amendments and I had not moved them. I beg to move.
 
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The Earl of Caithness: I support the noble Baroness. She made a point that I wanted to raise at some stage. I shall follow what she said, which was that there would be pressure by estate agents to get a sale. I regret to have to say that that happens at the moment because a lot of estate agents work on incredibly low salaries but with high commission rates. That is a very bad practice in a professional business that sells somebody's prime asset. Where estate agents are on a low salary and high commission, there is huge pressure on them to get a sale as quickly as possible, regardless of the client's interest.

With a home condition report and a home information pack, there will be even greater pressure on them to get a sale. The directors will be saying, "This costs money and time for which we are not getting a proper reimbursement. Get rid of that property as quickly as possible. Get the vendor to accept a lower price. Let's get it off our books. Get it done and we can submit a fee account because that property has been hanging around". That might not be in the client's interest. On occasions, my partner and I have said to clients, "Do not accept the offer. Wait a bit". That has incurred no extra expense under the rules by which we operate at present but has proved to be for the benefit of the client in the long run.

When we discussed this yesterday, my Amendment No. 184A was grouped with the amendments. It was my fault that I did not realise it at the time and therefore did not speak to it. I notified the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, that I might at some stage raise Amendment No. 184A just to get his response. If one follows the amendment that the noble Baroness has moved, and adds this advertisement:

"This property is offered for sale without a home information pack or home condition report being currently available. Intending purchasers may be exposed to an increased risk of financial loss if adverse legal or structural matters affecting the property become evident after negotiations for the purchase have begun",

it is in the consumer's interest. It allows the prospective purchaser to say, "I am not going to bother with those properties that do not have an HIP. I will just concentrate on those that do"; or the vendor can say, "I am still interested in a property that does not have an HIP. It is exactly the same situation that I have been used to operating in in the past. I will carry on with the prospective purchase".

If, in due course, it is found that prospective purchasers are shunning properties that do not have home information packs or home condition reports, then the market will force estate agents to tell their clients that they must produce that information because they are missing out on the main section of buyers.

The noble Baroness is absolutely right to pursue her amendment but I should be grateful if the Minister would comment on Amendment No. 184A.
 
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5.45 p.m.

Lord Phillips of Sudbury: I add to the point just made by the noble Viscount—

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