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Lord Bassam of Brighton: I think that I said earlier that there will be a commencement order that will bring in the duty after the dry run is over. We have got an implementation period, which, from memory, is around 2007, giving us about two-and-a-half years. That means that there is ample scope and opportunity for discussions with the industry. Those discussions are already taking place, which, as I said, are about ironing out wrinkles. Of course we can do that.
I think that, yesterday, my noble friend Lord Rooker gave an example in the legislation where we will be able to do things by order. I have not got that at the forefront of my mind, but I am saying to the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, and to Members of the Committee: yes, we will do this carefully and constructively and we will work with all the relevant stakeholders who are discussing those sorts of details with us now. As I said yesterday, we want to make this work with good will. Because we have a lengthy run-in period, we can achieve that, which is in everyone's interests.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury: I am sorry to press this, but it is very important. If, for example, in the dry run, it was found that transactions of a certain type generally did not react constructively to the pack, in current legislation I do not think that there is anything that would allow the Government to say, "Fine, we are going to exclude that class of transactions from the compulsion".
The Government would not lose anything in conceding that parts of the Bill, such as the one on the basis of which these amendments are brought forward, could have within it the power of the Minister to make the provisions compulsory or not. At present, there is not that leeway. I am not asking for an answer now. But, because this has emerged as being really important, I am asking for the Government kindly to look at the whole of the dry run, which, in a sense, is the sort of pilot that we were talking about last night, and build into the legislation enough leeway so that if their expectations are not fulfilled by the dry run we are not trapped into having to come back to Parliament to change the legislation.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: The noble Lord makes perfectly reasonable points. To recap: the scale will be national, there will be a six-month minimum period and of course we will learn from it. We have the power to make regulations to exclude different types of property and different components. If the noble Lord is looking for the authority for that he will find it in Clauses 143 and 144. I am reminded that it was not so long ago that we produced the home information pack consultation paper. There are few surprises in this debate because much of the content and thinking behind it is contained in that document.
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We have ample time to refine it further. The way in which we have set out the legislation provides us with the flexibility that the noble Lord seeks. This is where trust, good will and working together with the stakeholders can deal with some of the problems that perhaps the noble Lord and the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, see as intractable.
Baroness Hamwee: I am aware that we have spent about an hour on the first two groups of amendments. In introducing this amendment I deliberately did not repeat all the arguments from yesterday. I hope that I speak for my noble friend Lady Maddock—the noble Baroness can speak for herself—in saying that we do not need to have the Government's arguments repeated. New points are always welcome. We have got the message. We disagree on the matter. That is why I carefully did not repeat the arguments but used the amendment as a basis to ask a question on which my noble friend has built.
I still do not understand how a dry run will do anything much to assist knowledge if the arguments that the Government have been advancing about the need for compulsion apply. It seems contradictory, but I shall not pursue the matter now. We will pursue it later. So much of the Government's proposals are based on their understanding—as our arguments are based on ours—of the experience of different groups of people with different experiences of sales, properties and so on.
It would be extremely helpful if the Government could give us a list of all the survey work they have carried out so that we can consider whether they have hard evidence about what will happen to small estate agents—or what will happen to elderly people, perhaps someone having to move into a residential home, whose experience will be completely different from a young family moving to a bigger house. There are so many different aspects.
I hope that that will enable us to answer some of our questions. It would be extremely helpful to know what survey work has been undertaken. I am not sure that the Minister will be able to comment: perhaps he will do so later today. I leave that point with him and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 184 to 185 not moved.]
Lord Rooker moved Amendment No. 185ZA:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 185A not moved.]
Baroness Hamwee moved Amendment No. 185B:
( ) the seller markets the property himself"
The noble Baroness said: The amendment proposes that an individual who markets a property himself, not through an estate agent, is not required to have a home
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information pack. There may be an argument about provisions applying to estate agents selling in the course of business. We have said already that we are interested in protecting consumers, but it is not at all obvious that a seller wishing to undertake the sale himself should be as restricted in his ability to sell as the provisions would ensure.
Most DIY home sellers, unless they have a background in conveyancing, would not have the expertise to assemble a pack. Sellers are consumers as well. The noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, mentioned technological advances. As a consumer or seller I might want to take advantage of what is available over the Internet. Information in the field of domestic property is now refined to make it as straightforward as possible for land registration and so on.
I wonder whether it is appropriate for the Government, who talk about choice, to provide that a DIY seller would not have a choice. I beg to move.
Lord Borrie: It would be a great pity if the Committee accepted the amendment. It would make a large hole in the proposals in Part 5. It has been said both by the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, and by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, that a seller is a consumer as well as the buyer. When one normally thinks of consumer protection one thinks of the buyer and protection for the buyer vis-à-vis the seller. First-time buyers, an important group of purchasers of houses, they are buyers only.
This part of the Bill gives added protection, not only to first-time but to other buyers, so that above all when they make an offer they do so on the basis of intelligible and comprehensive information and knowledge about the property. That is the basis of having this material available from the moment of marketing as we have repeatedly debated on this part of the Bill.
In a chain there are chains of buyers and sellers. One of the sellers may be selling their house without a professional estate agent. We have said many times that a chain is a most important consideration under this part of the Bill. There are many reasons why someone would wish to sell his property without an estate agent. It may be to save the commission; it may be someone with time on their hands to show people around the property and so on. Why should the element of purchaser protection, which I want to emphasise, be lost just because the seller or one of the sellers in a chain is selling privately and not through an estate agent?
Of course the assembly of much of the information may require more professional expertise than even the most bold vendor may have; yet we all know that people do their own conveyancing, selling and acting as an estate agent.
The additional requirement under Part 5—which has to be provided up-front instead of later on—is to have available a home information pack at the time of marketing. That is most important. It would be a pity if it was not required on all occasions. The attempts of the other side to make this a voluntary practice have
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been discussed. The amendment is another way of trying to reduce the effectiveness of Part 5 by saying, "It should apply only to those in the profession of estate agent". I think buyer and customer consumer protection would be severely limited if the amendment were accepted.
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