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The Earl of Caithness: I am very grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. Perhaps I may press him a little further on his words "reasonable timescale". How long is a "reasonable timescale"? I have asked the noble Lord as managing agent to give me the information, and I am still waiting. When can I go ahead and market the property of the noble Lord, Lord Borrie?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: I am not sure that I want to be pressed on that; nor do I think that the noble Earl is right to press for a precise answer. I do not think that one could be that prescriptive in these circumstances. It would depend on the information being requested and what is reasonable in the circumstances. I think the noble Earl knows that.
I return to the point I made at the outset. We will listen to what we take to be sensible, practical professional views on this issue and make sure that we get it as right as we possibly can.
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Baroness Hanham: If we had not put down this amendment, we would not have teased out some quite interesting answers from the Minister. I think the Minister admits that it is entirely possible that elements of the pack will not and cannot be made available immediately.
We have been talking about the speed with which people want to put their properties on the market. In fact, if they are going to have to provide the whole of the home information pack at the beginning, potentially there will be delay to that. It could be delayed even further by the fact that they could not get the information. If the Minister is agreeing that some of that information may not be available, but that it is perfectly possible for someone to market his property by saying that the information is going to come—the obvious moment by which the information has got to be available is by the time the purchaser is beginning to look interested in buying the property—the answer seems to me to be that it would be possible to start marketing the property without some of the information available.
The amendment was really seeking to find out whether there were particular documents which could and probably would be made available quite quickly—whether you could start with those and then pile in afterwards with the more difficult ones. As my noble friend Lord Caithness has rightly pointed out, there are many difficulties with these services. I can perceive difficulties with getting the home condition reports if the provision comes into effect.
The noble Lord, Lord Borrie, said that regulations can always be changed. I do not know whether the Minister's heart sank at that, but mine certainly did because it seems to me that the evidence which would be required in order for regulations to be changed once they had been made would be quite startling and we would never get there.
However, I think that we have an admission from the Minister that the entire contents of the pack may not be available on day one on many occasions; that there will be leeway for people with a valid reason for not having it; and that they will be able to market their property without the information being there immediately.
If the Minister had accepted our earlier amendments which provided that the information did not have to be available in the first two weeks, we would have been home and dry and I would not have had to table these amendments.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: I take the noble Baroness back to the point that I made. What she seeks in effect is already there—in the provisions of Clause 144(9). I said very early on in my response that similar powers are already contained there. That is the key to the answer. We are, of course, going to be flexible in the way in which this is approached.
Baroness Hanham: Yes, it says that the regulations,
My concern is that there are some documents that may not be able to be included, no matter how many regulations the Minister makes about the time at which they must be available. The problem is when they cannot be available within the time that the Minister says. We may come back to this but I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Hamwee moved Amendment No. 196A:
"( ) Before making regulations for the purposes described in subsection (1), the Secretary of State shall consult with representatives of those bodies likely to have an interest in or be affected by the proposals.
( ) A statutory instrument under this Part is not to be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament."
The noble Baroness said: I have been wondering when the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, is going to say, "Okay, I give in, the noble Lord can market my property". Maybe that will come before we conclude the Bill or perhaps the noble Earl should choose another—I was going to say "victim", but I do not mean that—potential client.
This amendment might more logically have been dealt with under Clause 213 but its substance comes quite neatly at this point. The amendment provides for consultation with representatives of appropriate bodies before regulations are made and that regulations should be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.
We have heard a lot about what regulations can cover in order to deal with matters that your Lordships have raised by way of amendments to the Bill. We have been assured that a whole range of items can be dealt with, if necessary, through regulations. But this is such a wide ranging and fundamental change to the way the domestic property market will operate in the future that it must be right to give this House and the Commons the opportunity to debate the regulations before they are introduced. We are treading new ground—or new water, I am not sure which one does.
A noble Lord: It depends who you are.
Baroness Hamwee: I am not a very good sailor; I will tread ground.
I heard what the Minister said about the groups that have been consulted. In part, that is behind my earlier request to see what survey work has been done. Of course, I do not doubt his assurances about the research and consultation that has gone on, but it would be helpful to see it.
The Minister will probably say that the first part of the amendment is not necessary because the Secretary of State will do it anyway. The purpose of the second part of the amendment is to ensure that, if we do end up with a compulsory scheme, we, and the Commons, get the opportunity not just to express views but possibly even to contribute to a scheme that is slightly better at the end of the resolution procedure. I beg to move.
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9.30 p.m.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: We have had a bit of discussion on Clause 144. It sets out the provisions relating to the contents of the pack, as we have discussed, and it gives the Secretary of State the power to prescribe, through regulation, the documents that are to be included in the pack, the formats in which they should included and the information to be included in them.
The regulations will also say who may provide the documents and who has a right to rely on them. They may also specify the time at which any document is to be included in—or removed from—the pack and make different provisions for different areas or different property types.
Amendment No. 196A would add a requirement that the Secretary of State must consult representatives of interested and affected bodies before making regulations under Clause 144. That is a very important point. As I have said many times, we need to ensure that we get the content of the pack right. For that reason, we are committed to having detailed consultations. We want to maximise the benefits for consumers and, at the same time, take full account of the needs of the property industry and the professionals who play a key role in the transaction process.
I am going to make a big admission, which is simply this. I would not want to claim at any stage that all the necessary expertise resides in central Government. That is why, from the outset, we have involved all the main professional and trade bodies, as well as consumer representatives, when researching and developing our proposals.
I think that it is accepted that we have consulted widely on the major issues. Stakeholders are involved in the new programme management structure and the various working groups that we have set up to advise on the detailed contents of the pack. At every stage, we have been very accepting and welcoming of their active participation and co-operation. I can assure Members of the Committee that we will continue that process until we get beyond the point of implementation. I cannot say that we will always agree: that would not be right and it would be dishonest of me to say that. We will of course take careful account of and review their views.
We do not have a problem with full and proper consultation. The intention behind the amendment is one that we share. However, the difficulty is that to consult is such a general duty. For that reason, it is a little unhelpful. It would leave the regulations open to challenge by any person or body that may have an interest, however remote, were they not consulted.
The noble Baroness will have heard me say before, on this and other legislation, that there is a problem with specifying on the face of legislation those bodies that should be consulted. Inevitably, over time, new bodies are set up and existing ones merge or cease to operate. Interestingly, in the property field that happened not so long ago with the Institute of Valuers and Auctioneers, which was originally represented on
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our home buying and selling steering group. As I understand it, it has now merged with the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors.
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