| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Lord Phillips of Sudbury: I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Will it help if I remind him that the legislation under the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 had an almost identical consultation provision in it?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: It is quite likely that it did. But legislation and needs vary, do they not? Amendment No. 196A would also change the Secretary of State's regulation-making powers from a negative resolution procedure to an affirmative resolution procedure. I know that that is a popular change to make in legislation. Obviously, we have consulted with the Delegated Powers Committee. My understanding is that, currently, it is content with what has been set in train in the legislation. Of course, if it was to express a different view, we would have to take that into account when bringing changes forward later.
We feel that these issues are best dealt with through regulations rather than in the Bill. It is important to have flexibility to amend any regulations that are put in place in response to changes in the housing market. For example, changes in the market may make some items of the pack redundant or new sources of information may come to light. As presently drafted, the negative resolution procedure is right, should it prove to be necessary to make some changes.
For those reasons we resist the amendment, although, as I think I have probably expressed in my response, we certainly understand the thinking behind it. It is certainly our intention to consult extensively, in detail and as sensitively as possible. We know that so far, in bringing the legislation forward, we have benefited greatly from the wisdom of the various interest groups, property professionals and institutions that advise us.
The Earl of Caithness: The Minister speaks wonderful honeyed words. He has read out some beautiful bureaucracy. He has an excellent speechwriter—I will give him that—"We are listening; we are sympathetic; we are in listening mode." The Government might be in listening mode, but what have they done since we discussed the seller's pack? The only thing they have done is to change from criminal to civil penalties. They have done nothing. They have been in listening mode on the whole of Part 5, and what have we got? Nothing but a straight block.
My goodness, Geoffrey Boycott looks like one of the most engaging batsmen in the world compared to how the Government are defending this provision. They know that they have a duty to get it through, forget about what everyone is saying, soothe them down and give them some nice words. We could do with a bit more from the Government than just listening mode. If they are listening, the fact that so much solid good evidence and hard argument has been
14 Sept 2004 : Column 1126
put forward from so many people in Committee and yet we have got nothing out of the Government is extraordinary.
Will the Minister confirm that by no means all those taking part in the discussions are in favour of what is going to happen? For instance, the National Association of Estate Agents, which has been heavily consulted, was very in favour of the seller's pack. That was because the chief executive at the time thought it was a good idea. When the members started to say, "Hang on, chief executive, this is not such a good idea after all", he eventually had to resign because he was totally out of touch with his membership.
He has gone on to help the Government in other ways, but the fact remains that the National Association of Estate Agents is not united in support of Part 5. Its members are against it. They might have to work with the Government, but we all have to work with the Government. Will the Minister confirm that many of the people with whom the Government are negotiating: the Council of Mortgage Lenders, the National Association of Estate Agents—many organisations—are trying to knock some sense into the Government because they are concerned about Part 5? Besides consulting and listening will they please take on board some of the advice being given to them?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: I said earlier that we did not always expect to agree with representations made by everyone. The noble Earl is aware of the balance of who is in favour and who is against. He has read the quotes and seen the articles in newspapers, but that does not deflect us at all from believing, understanding and approaching this set of propositions with confidence.
We accept that there will be difficulties in implementation. My noble friend Lord Rooker has made it clear that we will listen sensibly. We have given ourselves a lengthy lead-in period for implementation. We have made it plain that there will be a voluntary period running up to the implementation date, the setting of regulations, and so on.
Of course there will be differences, but that does not mean that we will not focus on practical issues that come up. We have made it clear from the outset that we will listen to those making a practical case on particular difficulties. The noble Earl is being too pessimistic. I am an optimist in these matters: I think that we can get the legislation right and that consumers of estate agents and buying and selling services generally will welcome it over time because they will see that it has improved the process, made the market much easier to understand and enabled them to be much more confident in buying the home that they want.
Baroness Hamwee: The Minister commented on the first part of the amendment and suggested that one reason for not accepting it was the difficulty of knowing who had merged with whom at any given time. The amendment does not suggest continuous consultation but consultation for the purposes of the proposed regulations. I do not take that point.
14 Sept 2004 : Column 1127
As to the issue of regulations by affirmative resolution, the noble Lord, Lord Dahrendorf, who chairs the committee to which the Minister referred, has said to me on many occasions that he does not necessarily expect the House to follow the advice of that committee. It gives advice to the House, not a prescription. We happen not to agree with its approach to this matter.
These are very important regulations. They are almost of the status of the primary legislation in their importance. However, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Hanham moved Amendment No. 197:
"(4) A responsible person shall not commit an offence if he excludes a relevant document from the home information pack, provided the document does not detract from the value of the property."
The noble Baroness said: Having listened to the previous comments of the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, I am tempted to say that if the Government are so confident about these packs it might be a good idea to introduce them voluntarily rather than imposing them. They could then watch people jumping through hoops to get their packs because they will think that they are an overwhelmingly good idea.
That is not what my amendment is about. It is just a comment, which needs to be kept running through the debate, that a voluntary basis would be better than what the Government are trying to do.
As it stands, subsection (4) of Clause 144 is very broad. It states that "relevant information" means anything to do with a property or the sale of a property. We need to test where that ends. For example, a large number of residents living in the counties of Essex, Hertfordshire and Cambridgeshire are currently in the process of fighting the proposed expansion of Stansted airport as they feel that any such development may have an adverse effect on the value and amenity of their property.
We will not know whether that is right unless or until the threatened expansion takes place. However, in the case of the residents to whom I have alluded, if they were going to sell their property and a search—if they did not know about it through publicity—threw up the possibility of an airport, would they need to have a copy of the Government's transport White Paper included in their home information pack so that prospective buyers could make an informed choice about whether they wanted to live near the biggest airport in the world?
The question is only slightly facetious because there will be many other examples where there is a specific problem in a specific area, such as wind farms. There are all kinds of things that may need to be included. It is a question of where the pack ends and whether we go from 200 pages to 800 pages. I beg to move.
Viscount Ullswater: I support my noble friend's amendment. The home information packs will be
14 Sept 2004 : Column 1128
prescriptive and made by regulation. Subsection (5) contains the kind of information which the Secretary of State may consider to be relevant information. The Explanatory Notes almost mirror the smaller items in that subsection.
I should like to inquire about the Minister's views on the importance of including environmental reports in home information packs. I am advised that well over 50 per cent of all conveyancing transactions utilise an environmental report and that lenders are increasingly requesting them. They provide an assessment of the environmental risk, which has an effect on the value of the property. Many environmental factors are important also on health grounds. Perhaps an environmental report should be included in the home information packs.
The report should provide in particular a statement on whether a property's site could potentially be classed as contaminated land. That is crucial, because, under the Environmental Protection Act 1990, the homeowner is liable for remediation costs when the original polluter cannot be traced. I am sure the Minister will understand that remediation costs can run into hundreds of thousands of pounds. I am thinking of old brownfield sites in city centres—for example, old gas works, old tannery business sites and old canal basins—filled with waste on which houses have subsequently been built.
The report should perhaps contain a clear summary of the environmental information that is easily understood by consumers with no previous experience of those issues, along with a clear explanation of where they should go for further help and of where liability lies if they have a dispute. Important considerations such as subsidence, radon gas and flooding should perhaps be covered as well.
If that kind of information is not included, it could result in two searches being carried out—the first for the home information pack and the second by the buyer's solicitor, which would be a completely different level of search. I believe that the Government expect the home information packs to obviate the need for the buyer to conduct his own search, but without that kind of information, the packs will not achieve what the Government set out to do.
The amendment states that a person would not commit an offence if such relevant documents were omitted. Will the Minister give his view on the kind of environmental information that I have discussed?
| Next Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |