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Baroness Hamwee: I freely acknowledge that at this time of night I am flagging. I shall not attribute that to others, but I shall have to read what the Minister has said. I am not sure that I have followed everything, which I am sure is my fault and not his.
On Amendment No. 200B, we are assured that the regulations will be all right, but when talking about issues of enforcement I am not sure that that is wholly satisfactory. I spoke to Amendment No. 206A, but I want to see in black and white what has been said as, earlier, I had understood something slightly different from the noble Lord, Lord Rooker. I thank the Minister for his reply.
Baroness Hanham: I am very interested in the Minister's reply that work has been carried out with the mortgage lenders. The hope is that the home condition report will satisfy them. It would be essential for the home condition report to carry at least a statement saying that it is accepted by the mortgage lenders. As with other matters, one can see that beginning to fade out of existence, as the home condition report removes the novelty. It seems to me important that the buyer will be exempted from having to pay the costs of a valuation in those circumstances; indeed, the seller will have paid for the valuation report for the buyer. That is a completely new concept. I shall not take the matter any further tonight. It has sparked off a whole new area of interest, but I shall not bother the Committee with it tonight.
Baroness Hamwee: I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
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Baroness Hanham moved Amendment No. 201:
(d) allow the Secretary of State to enable local authorities to set and maintain fees for those searches and functions under the Local Land Charges Act 1975 (c. 76), The Local Land Charges Rules 1977 and the Common Registration Act 1965 (c. 64)."
The noble Baroness said: The amendment gives the Government a chance to redeem themselves in the eyes of local government by giving local councils more power to raise money locally.
There are currently two types of search. The first type is the official search carried out by local authority officers. There are also now reports carried out by private agencies which are becoming increasingly popular. I dare say that private agencies will still be entitled to do the searches for the vendor. However, these private agencies still have to rely on the information from the local land charges register. Those are given to them by council officers.
The cost of the searches at the moment is set by law at £11. That does not cover the costs. The estimated actual cost in time and effort of local council officers is more likely to be £50 per search. Where a local council is able to charge a sensible amount for the services it provides, these local agencies have estimated that a sum in the region of £60 million from revenue would be raised by local councils across the land. That is a positive development that I hope the Minister will accept. I beg to move.
Baroness Hamwee: I support this amendment. I am very glad that the noble Baroness was fast enough to table it. I realise that we should have tabled it and was happy to see that it was tabled. Personal searches are made because the purchaser wants to get on with it and is prepared to bear the professional cost of a personal search—in other words, the cost of somebody pitching up at the local authority's offices and looking at the material rather than sitting in an office and waiting for it.
That in itself is an expense, so it would not be a great disaster for the consumer—the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, has rightly talked of the Bill as a consumer Bill—if the cost to the local authority of personal searches was covered, because officers have to go and get the files and so on. It is unlikely to add very greatly to the cost for the consumer, but would be fair to the local authority.
Lord Rooker: I have good news—it is a good news day or a good news amendment—although it is only partial good news. I do not want to oversell it.
Amendment No. 201 seeks to give the Secretary of State the power to enable local authorities to set their own fees for services provided under the Local Land Charges Act 1975 and the Commons Registration Act 1965, including for searches of the relevant registers. That is similar to an amendment discussed in Committee in the other place. The Minister with responsibility for housing said then that these fees are not restricted to housing matters. The wording of this
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amendment might have the unfortunate consequence of allowing only fees relating to residential properties to be devolved to local authorities.
Local land charge fees in England and Wales are currently set by the Lord Chancellor with the concurrence of the Treasury. For England, deregulation of the setting of these fees is part of the Government's strategy for implementing the local government White Paper. The Government have supported David Borrow's Local Land Charges (Fees) Bill. However, it is unlikely that that Bill will complete its parliamentary stages in this Session. I can now confirm that the Government are intending to bring forward an amendment to the Constitutional Reform Bill which would devolve to local authorities in England the power to set fees for local land charge services, with the exception of personal search fees.
In relation to local land charges services in Wales, including personal search fees, the Government have agreed to the National Assembly's proposal to transfer fee-setting powers to the Assembly. A transfer of functions order to achieve that is to be laid before Parliament by the Secretary of State for Wales shortly.
Personal search fees are excepted from the proposals for England because they present some difficult issues. A full review is to be undertaken before any decision is made. It would be premature to set a date for that review until we know the scope of the study that the Office of Fair Trading is planning to conduct into the property search market. The National Assembly for Wales has confirmed that it will not use its powers to set personal search fees in Wales until it has undertaken a review of those fees. It is expected that the National Assembly will join in a review of personal search fees across England and Wales.
Setting fees for searches of the common land register is a matter for my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. Defra is currently considering a package of reforms to the registers, and plans to introduce primary legislation as soon as possible. Information in the local land charges register and information about common land would fall within the ambit of Clause 144(5)(c) as relevant information for the home information pack. However, charging powers in relation to the provision of such information is very much a matter for other legislation, as I have explained.
Progress is on the way. I hope that, in the light of those comments, the noble Baroness will be more than satisfied that that was a very positive response to a fully worked-up amendment that, sadly, I cannot accept.
Lord Avebury: Is it not possible that, one day, all the information will be digitised, and that the consumers will be able to make the searches for themselves without paying professional fees?
Lord Rooker: Probably, one day.
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Baroness Hanham: The answer to my amendment seems to be, "Yes, but not now". I accept that, although it is a great pity that it cannot be put into the legislation. I thank the Minister for his reply and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 145 [Home condition reports]:
[Amendment No. 202 not moved.]
Baroness Hanham moved Amendment No. 203:
The noble Baroness said: Amendments Nos. 203 to 205 are grouped together. They suggest that, when regulations are put in place, the home condition reports must be produced by someone adequately qualified to carry out the task. Those who carry out the reports must be able to inspire the trust of the purchaser. If we are to have the home information packs foisted on us, for goodness' sake let us at least make sure that they are worth the paper on which they are written.
I refer back to the amendment regarding the suitability of the reports to mortgage lenders. In order for the reports to have any credibility at all in the marketplace, they must be prepared in such a way and by such a qualified person that they are fit for the task. Having language such as,
"regulations may require a home condition report to be made by an individual who is a member of an approved certification scheme",
in the clause is not at all helpful. It suggests that anyone may be in the position to produce such a report and that, if necessary, the house seller can scratch one together.
I recall the Minister saying earlier that there would be a training programme for the inspectors, and I recall reading elsewhere that an NVQ would be required for home inspectors. An NVQ is nowhere near the qualification of a chartered surveyor, the person who currently does the surveys. One of the most important aspects of the reports will be that they are of sufficient quality to enable everyone to rely on them, otherwise exactly what I suggested before will happen—they will not be worth the paper on which they are written, people will not rely on them, and buyers will simply get their own searches and surveys done at the normal expense to them, and thereby will not really save anything at all.
Therefore, it is extremely important that we know what the training scheme for the home inspectors will entail. We should know the level of the qualification that they will be required to have if they carry out this work, the extent of the training and what is involved. I beg to move.
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