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Lord Morris of Manchester: My Lords, I entirely understand the concern that underlies my noble friend's amendment. He has made a strong case for it and I am sure noble Lords across the House will see its importance. It was in the context of his case for the amendment that my noble friend referred back to the debate on Report on the burden and the standard of proof and referred to me in doing so.

I can assure him that the Royal British Legion will be responding, point by point and in full detail, to charges made by my noble friend Lord Bach in his reply to the debate on my amendment to the Bill—so emphatically carried by noble Lords of all parties and groups in this House—to retain the safeguard vouchsafed for service men and women left in broken health, and the bereaved families of those who give their lives in our service, by a burden of proof based on reasonable doubt.

Meanwhile the legion totally repudiates and deeply resents any suggestion, implied or explicit, that I in any way misreported or misrepresented its position on an issue to which the whole ex-service community attaches the highest importance.

For now, the legion notes that the Government's stance on the burden and standard of proof is exactly as it was when this Bill was first presented to Parliament, notwithstanding all that has been said by the ex-service community.

Confirmation of this was elicited by a brilliantly well-timed question from my friend the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, at the end of the Parliamentary Under-Secretary's reply to the debate on my amendment. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, asked,

"before the noble Lord sits down, could he explain on whom the onus of proof lies in his proposals? I am not concerned with the standard. The claimant brings a claim: is the onus of proof on him to establish the situation or is it on the MoD?",

to which my noble friend Lord Bach replied,

"under the new scheme the onus would be on the claimant but obviously on the balance of probabilities".—[Official Report, 8/9/04; col. 588.]

They were his final words in the debate, making it utterly clear that the MoD's stance had remained throughout exactly as it was at the outset, showing them to have been totally impervious to all suggestions for change whether from the legion, the Defence
 
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Committee of the House of Commons or anyone else. What has changed is the Bill itself and the legion is most grateful, as it has publicly stated, to everyone here who helped to bring that about on 8 September.

Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Corbett, raises an important point. The Royal British Legion deserves better treatment from the Government. Ministers cannot say how they depend on NGOs and then insult them when they do their job. The Royal British Legion has always made it clear that it is prepared to compromise. I very much hope that a compromise can be reached for the satisfaction of the Royal British Legion, the ex-service community and the Government.

Lord Bach: My Lords, I thank all the noble Lords who have spoken in this short debate. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Corbett, for his amendment, but I am somewhat surprised that an attack on me, on the basis of misleading the House, which he has made in his usual robust and fair way, is one he gave me no notice of at all.

Lord Corbett of Castle Vale: My Lords, will my noble friend allow me?

Lord Bach: My Lords, of course.

Lord Corbett of Castle Vale: My Lords, something has clearly gone wrong. I understand what the Minister is saying. I faxed a copy of my notes on the remarks I was going to be making to his office at about five minutes to twelve today.

Lord Bach: My Lords, I had no idea that the noble Lord had done that, and I am grateful to him for doing so. That is what I would have expected him to do. I have not been in my office since five to twelve, as I was busy doing other defence work elsewhere in London. I am grateful to him for having done that.

On his amendment, we entirely recognise that Parliament will wish to be kept informed about the operation of both the new pension and compensation arrangements once they have been introduced. My honourable friend the Minister for Veterans Affairs, Mr Ivor Caplin, has a responsibility to keep Parliament informed on all matters affecting the veterans' community, including progress with the new pensions and compensation arrangements. He does this on an annual basis. It is our view that his keeping Parliament informed as he does, including on the new compensation and pension arrangements, meets the requirement expressed in this amendment, but at a greater frequency than is asked for in this amendment. We therefore do not think that there is any necessity for this amendment to be placed on the face of the Bill. But, as far as concerns the principle, of Parliament being informed about how a new scheme will work, I could not agree with my noble friend more strongly.

I do not intend, if the House will forgive me, to go into details of the debate we had last week—that matter may come back before the House in due course—but I want
 
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to make a couple of points. First, two issues have been brought together in the argument. The first is the question of the burden and standard of proof, on which there was a disagreement between the Royal British Legion and the British Government. Although attempts were made—I believe genuinely on both sides—to find a form of words at certain stages, that has not been successful up to now.

The second is the issue of the research into the 60 per cent figure that the Royal British Legion used for the proportion of claims that would fail under the new scheme. It was in regard to that latter point that I was interrupting my noble friend this time last week. I was doing so on the basis of the letter that he has quoted to me today, dated 6 September 2004, from secretary general Ian Townsend of the Royal British Legion, to Lieutenant-General Anthony Palmer of the Minister of Defence. I quote:

"With regard to the issue of your officials reviewing our files relating to our earlier research in this subject, Terry English, having consulted with our legal advisers, informed Jonathon Iremonger earlier that in view of the MoD's stance that they have not nor are they prepared to carry out their own research, it would be inappropriate".

That is why no discussions took place on the 60 per cent.

I have gone into one detail, although I promised the House that I would not. I am certainly not intending to go into any more, because I think the House has other matters to attend to, both in this Bill and others.

I am, of course, deeply sorry if my noble friend Lord Corbett thinks that I have misled the House. I will look into what he has to say about that with extreme care, of course. I do not believe I have misled the House, and we will have to see what happens.

I am delighted that my noble friend Lord Morris of Manchester is in his place today. I want to make it absolutely clear to him that anything I said last week was not at all meant as a personal attack on him. He knows that I hold him in the highest affection. The work that he does for the Royal British Legion, and for veterans generally, is of the highest order. My criticism last week was of what was said on behalf of the Royal British Legion. Whether I was right or wrong to say that is another matter, but no personal attack on my noble friend was intended.

I end my brief remarks by saying that although, of course, there are disagreements from time to time between the Ministry of Defence and the Royal British Legion, and on a number of important issues raised by this significant Bill, I want to put on record the very high esteem in which we at the Ministry of Defence hold the Royal British Legion. It has a long and distinguished record of representing the interests of our veterans, and we have worked, and continue to work, with it to bring a number of very significant improvements to the veterans' community. This will continue in the future, as we build on the relationship, to take forward the veterans' initiative. We recognise the respect—mentioned by my noble friend—with which the Royal British Legion is viewed across the country and, indeed, well outside the shores of this country. We welcome and support the efforts that it
 
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makes to represent the interests of many who have suffered as a result of the service they have given to this country. Though we do take a different view on some issues—and that should not be of any surprise to the House—the Royal British Legion, in our opinion, has an essential role to play and will remain central to our relationship with the veterans' community.

Lord Corbett of Castle Vale: My Lords, I thank those of your Lordships who have taken part in this short debate. I am grateful for the general support which the amendment has received. I thank my noble friend the Minister for his last few words. I am reading into them that, like me, my noble friend Lord Morris of Manchester and others, he recognises that it is in no one's interests that there should be a public row—more than a disagreement, a public row—between the responsible Minister and the Royal British Legion. Perhaps, in that sense, we can regard this as an unhappy incident on a long road.

I say to my noble friend the Minister that I had spoken to his private office just before noon today. I was told that he was not leaving the building until, I think, about a quarter past twelve and that he was then going to do something else but would be back. I was given a fax number, to which I faxed the notes on which my remarks were based. I am grateful to him for accepting my word on this. I want to underline that I do not believe in laying elephant traps. Where I am going to make serious accusations—rarely, happily—where it is possible that Ministers have been responsible for misleading the House, I would never simply drop those into a Minister's lap in the course of a debate. I am grateful to him for acknowledging that. I wonder whether he would be kind enough to make some inquiries in his private office as to what may have happened to that fax and write to me to let me know the outcome of that. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

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