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Lord Faulkner of Worcester: I found the speech by the noble Lord, Lord Best, very interesting and really rather extraordinary. The mood of the great debate we had
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earlier today was on compromise—compromise between the House and the other place, possibly with the Government holding the ring in some way. On the issue of hare coursing there is absolutely no room for compromise whatever. I think that the Committee must realise that if it were to pass these amendments this evening, the other place would rightly conclude that this House has no interest in coming to a compromise on the Bill as a whole. The House of Commons has passed Motions, Private Members' Bills and other resolutions on the issue of banning hare coursing continuously since 1970. When the Hunting Bill came before them on the most recent occasion, and on earlier occasions, the votes on the issue have all been absolutely overwhelming.
This is the one issue on which there is universal public support for a ban. It is regarded as quite different from the fox hunting debate. The argument for fox hunting, which is not one that I agree with, was to do with keeping down numbers. There is no argument about keeping down the numbers of hares. The hare species is the subject of a biodiversity programme, and every attempt is being made to increase the numbers because, in some parts of the country, it is endangered.
Viscount Ullswater: The noble Lord has expressed his view about what the House of Commons has said. As far as I am concerned, I do not believe that the House of Lords has had an opportunity to express its view about coursing. Would he deny the House of Lords an opportunity to express its view?
Lord Faulkner of Worcester: Of course I would not. Indeed, the House of Lords expressed its view on hare coursing on 28 October 2003, when it voted by 129 to 59 to remove Clause 5 from the Bill. We debated hare coursing at great length a year ago. I remember making a speech, and the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, followed me. We took completely contrary lines, but we debated this. On that occasion, we lost.
The effect of that vote to delete Clause 5 was to continue hare coursing unlicensed and unregistered. I suppose that, in that sense at least, the amendment which my noble friend moved earlier represents just a tiny step forward. I assume that one of the amendment's consequences is that unregistered coursing—the sort of coursing to which the noble Lord, Lord Best, referred—will be made illegal. My feeling is that, because coursing itself is essentially cruel—it is killing for sport, killing for gambling, killing for fun—it is inconceivable that we should continue to allow it to happen.
It is not the case that the National Coursing Club does not provide any points for a kill. I am advised that it provides for one point to be given for a kill provided that it is through superior skill. The noble Lord made another assertion that he may wish to correct.
Baroness Mallalieu: Will the noble Lord tell us who has given him the information that one point is awarded for a kill? I understand that that is not so.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester: I have been given this briefing by people who are taking a very close interest in the Bill, in the same way as the noble Lord, Lord Best, was making his assertions.
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Baroness Byford: As the noble Lord will see, the noble Baroness wishes to come back. And noble Lords are quite rightly asking, "Who?".
Lord Faulkner of Worcester: The answer is that the information has come from the RSPCA. I am very happy to quote it in this debate.
The other point that needs to be borne in mind is that, in giving evidence to the Burns inquiry, the National Coursing Club made it quite clear that eight coursing clubs had netted and moved hares around the country for coursing. It is not true that they are all local hares that just happen to be in the fields where the courses are taking place. There is a conscious effort to move them from one part of the country to other parts of the country, particularly from Norfolk to the estates of Lord Leverhulme, where the Waterloo Cup is held. That strikes me as a cynical and very cruel practice.
I very much hope that your Lordships will reject these amendments. There is extreme cruelty involved in this sport. The Burns committee found no grounds whatever for justifying the sport's continued existence. The noble Lord, Lord Burns, said that there was little or no need to control overall hare numbers and that hare running and coursing were carried out essentially for recreational purposes. So hare coursing is cruel and there is no reason, other than for sport, for it to be allowed to continue.
I shall end by quoting one of the witnesses at the Waterloo Cup in 2003, who talked to the Daily Mirror after the experience.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester: This was someone who was at the Waterloo Cup and no one has denied that it happened. Perhaps I may read the quotation.
"It's not illegal but it is immoral. One day I sat down and thought about it and I just couldn't do it any more.
"The captured hares are released on to land that is unfamiliar to them, they don't have any runs and they're so scared it's impossible for them to find an escape route. It's like me being taken from my house, being blindfolded, driven a hundred miles away and then dumped, being chased".
That strikes me as being a barbaric sport which there is no need for us to continue.
Lord Denham: The noble Lord has quoted all manner of things which are really not the case. He says that the hares are released on to ground that is unfamiliar to them. It is one of the rules of the National Coursing Club that no hare shall be moved at least six months before coursing takes place on that piece of ground. So the hare is familiar with that piece of ground in the natural course of events.
Baroness Mallalieu: Perhaps I may ask the noble Lord whether he has ever taken the trouble to attend any hare coursing event.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester: No, I have not, and I really would not wish to, but I have read enough about
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hare coursing events to be able to reach a view and to express to your Lordships my complete aversion to that barbaric activity.
Lord Donoughue: In speaking to the amendment, I shall also speak to Amendments Nos. 6 to 9, 50 and 87, which are also in my name. In defence of my noble friend Lord Faulkner of Worcester, he has every right to speak from total ignorance and lack of experience regarding this subject. In this House we should tolerate that, because it is not an unfamiliar experience. I also note that this is one more issue that, when it comes to compromise, all the compromises have to come from one side. Once more we are told that there is no compromise from the other side.
The amendment alters the Bill to allow coursing events to be subject to the two tests of utility and least suffering, and hence allows them to apply for registration. It prohibits unregistered hare coursing. I should point out to my noble friend Lord Faulkner that unregistered hare coursing, which is an appalling cause of cruelty and disorder in much of the countryside, makes up the vast majority of sport concerned with hares. The amendment deals with that.
Personal opinions regarding hare coursing differ greatly and my noble friend has expressed his view, while others will express theirs. I have previously stated in this House that I am not a great supporter. In fact, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Best, and very much like my noble friend Lord Faulkner, I am fairly ignorant of the sport—as are some of my colleagues who are not well informed on hunting with dogs. I believe that ignorance and prejudice, which I may have on this issue, should not be the basis for banning an activity. I am content that the issue of coursing, while I do not support it, should be subject to the expert judgment of the proposed registration process and based on principles and evidence.
It may be the case that, under the process of rational scrutiny which we are suggesting, coursing is not registered or allowed and is banned. I would be content with that outcome if it had been the result of a proper process of scrutiny and evidence. These issues should not be decided by emotive prejudice. That is why I support the amendment. It provides a legal process by which hare coursing, along with all other such country activities, may or may not be permitted. We should show faith in that process. It is a process of regulation; a process of registration, tests and principles; a process which the Committee overwhelmingly supported today.
Lord Eden of Winton: Since we are debating the Hunting Bill, and coursing is not hunting, is there not a very strong case for arguing that matters affecting coursing should be taken under another Bill that deals with animal welfare?
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