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The Earl of Caithness: I agree with the observation of the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer, that hare coursing has no place in this Bill. However, it is in the Bill at the Government's behest, and it would be wrong of us not to debate it in our usual fashion.

I sympathise with the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester. I have been given bad, inaccurate briefs in my time. One takes them with the best of intentions but, on reading them in the House, one finds them to be totally wrong. Unfortunately, the noble Lord slipped from his usual high standard of accuracy tonight, in at least three ways.

Clause 5 is a poachers' charter, as the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, has just explained. There is a wide new exemption under Schedule 1 that will enable anybody walking over heathland with their dogs to escape prosecution because they have a new defence that says they can hunt rabbits. They will say to the police, "We were hunting rabbits. I am sorry; my greyhounds—or lurchers—happened to come across a hare. What could I do? I am perfectly entitled to hunt rabbits; it was a genuine mistake". Clause 5 will
 
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increase considerably the amount of poaching in this country and give a new excuse and encouragement to those who carry out that trade.

As my noble friend Lord Astor said earlier, there is a threat to owners. When I was a land agent in Oxfordshire, one of the tenant farmers for whom I was responsible had his hay barn burnt down on more than one occasion because he had tried to stop illegal poaching. That is only one small example of where harassment comes in. It was not, as the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, said in reply to my noble friend, as simple as a threat; it is a much more insidious, subtle threat that such people impose on farmers and landowners. It is much more difficult for landowners and the police to handle such threats.

I have no doubt that, if hare coursing were stopped in England and Wales, not only would hare numbers be reduced, but the biodiversity programme that the Government are pushing forward would be severely damaged. Furthermore, the diversity of wildlife encouraged by those who manage their property for hares will also be diminished. One need only talk to the RSPB and the National Heritage authorities to learn from wardens that, where hares are managed on coursing estates, there is a considerable increase in wildlife and its diversity.

I used to know quite well the shooting area of Norfolk; I also know the coursing area quite well. There is a substantial difference in the amount of natural wildlife in the two parts of Norfolk. As the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, said, one of the keepers of that coursing land has told us that the hare population will have to be shot in order to stop illegal poaching in the future. If the hare population is shot and the farm is no longer managed for hares, all other species will suffer, including protected species.

We also heard from a farmer in Yorkshire who farms 800 acres. He extends all his set-aside and makes a conscious effort to improve the wildlife for the sake of the hare. He also said that the hares would have to be severely reduced on his land if coursing were banned. There is no question that if a ban on hare coursing is approved by Parliament, biodiversity and wildlife will suffer.

I return to my main point of animal welfare. Hare coursing that is run under the strict rules of the National Coursing Club is of benefit to the hare. Where coursing is properly managed, it has led to a huge increase in the number of hares. If that is stopped, illegal hare coursing and poaching will increase, which could be only to the detriment of all wildlife.

Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen: In a debate like this, we all use the views with which we want to agree. I have listened carefully to today's debate. I rise because I have attended hare coursing. In 1979, I was the Labour candidate for Bury St Edmunds. Members of the Committee who know Bury St Edmunds will realise that I did not have much hope of winning the seat.

During the period in which I was a candidate, I was invited by a Newmarket racehorse owner to attend hare coursing. As I did not know anything about it, I felt that
 
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I ought to go along, which I did. I have to say immediately that it was not as bad as I had thought it would be. However, it was not a happy afternoon. Three of the hares were—to put it mildly—badly mauled. I did not really see a sport on this occasion; I did not feel that the hare had very much chance. That was before 1979: hare coursing may well be a great deal better now. I have listened carefully to what has been said. But, at that time, I was not impressed with hare coursing.

Having said that, obviously, unregistered hare coursing is quite appalling and there is a need for control, on which I think that there has been agreement around the Committee. That is one of my points, which I hope expresses distaste rather than prejudice.

I understand the feelings of the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, on these issues. We keep coming back to something that is bothering me greatly, which also arose in the previous debate about fox hunting. A noble Lord opposite threw down the gauntlet, which I did not take up, asking, "Well, if you are not going to fox hunt, how are you going to control?".

My first point on that is that the hunts are not very good at controlling anyway because only 6 per cent of the foxes are killed by the hunts. My second point is—I shall come back to hares in a moment—that shooting foxes is a great deal better than running them to the ground by the hunt. Earlier, I heard about shooting—

Lord Eden of Winton: When the noble Baroness talks about shooting foxes, does she mean shooting with a shotgun or does she mean lamping and shooting with a rifle?

Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen: I refer to both methods, but I shall come on to shooting with a shotgun in a moment. However, I also agree with lamping. I know that there have been two cases recently where people have been shot, but as someone who comes from the countryside, I have known people who have shot each other inadvertently when out shooting pheasant and so forth.

I listened carefully to the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Best, about the control of hares, and I accept totally that control is necessary, as it is for foxes—which is why I am in favour of shooting them. But we have heard during the debate that the kind of people living in the countryside whom I have known over the years and who own guns have apparently become cross-eyed and cannot hit the target they are aiming at.

I am almost 64 years old and for the past 60 years I have been aware of people in the countryside shooting. They have shot rooks, blackbirds, hares, rabbits, crows, rats and foxes, and they have shot them accurately. However, we keep hearing the argument that shooting is no longer any good because so many people seem to miss these days. They cannot shoot accurately any more. I am beginning to feel that I must be living in a different countryside, even though I have lived there for 64 years minus one eight-year period.
 
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I cannot accept, as I did not earlier, that shooting is not a viable alternative in relation to hares. We do not need hare coursing in this country because they can be quite adequately controlled by shooting.

Viscount Ullswater: I support the amendments. Perhaps I should start by declaring an interest in that my wife is a member of two whippet coursing clubs. I admit that coursing is a recreational sport, but it plays an important part in hare conservation. The noble Baroness, Lady Gibson, talked about shooting, which is also a recreational sport. So we are comparing like with like. The Game Conservancy Trust confirms a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Best,

"that estates where coursing is practised maintain hare stocks at some of the highest levels in the country".

The Burns report—the report of the poor noble Lord, Lord Burns, has been almost chucked to one side, but I want to repeat one or two points—concludes on page 120 at paragraph 6.69 that,

"In the event of a ban on hunting and coursing hares, it seems likely that a few more would be shot than at present. There are concerns about the welfare implications of shooting hares because of wounding rates".

My noble friend Lord Denham referred to the House of Lords Select Committee that examined the hare coursing Bill introduced in 1975, and the Burns report draws attention to its report.

The noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, mentioned that wounding rates of 25 to 30 per cent had been reported, with a significant proportion of those injured not being retrieved at the end of the day. In any test of cruelty, it would seem that the gun is lower in order than the quick death from a coursing greyhound or whippet. When hares escape, they escape unhurt.

The Burns report uses a phrase in paragraph 6.67 which has often been repeated in this House:

"being killed by hounds seriously compromises the welfare of the hare".

That is misleading. The alternative of shooting also seriously compromises the welfare of the hare, while wounding can lead to a prolonged compromise of the welfare of the hare before it eventually dies.

The biggest predator of the hare is the fox. It might have difficulty in catching an adult hare but it can wipe out a leveret population in any given area. The hare has been hunted by wild predators over centuries and has evolved with a body perfected for quick escape: eyes well back on the head to see almost 100 per cent behind; long hind legs giving excellent power-to-weight ratio; and an agility to turn and jink when closely pursued.

Organised coursing clubs have very strict rules and the welfare of the hare is not overlooked in the competition between the two competing dogs. Whereas beagles and harriers might perform the very useful function of removing weak and diseased hares from the population, coursing encourages a strong and thriving stock of hares on the farms and lands where it takes place.
 
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Like my noble friend Lord Caithness, I have some sympathy with the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer. Why single out coursing for this special treatment in Clause 5 of the Bill? It is somehow exempted from government Amendment No. 56.

There is a glaring anomaly in the Bill. The hunting and coursing of hares is to be banned, but the hunting of rabbits is to be exempted. If this is an animal welfare measure, is not the welfare of the rabbit equally compromised by being flushed by terriers out of cover and caught by other dogs on the outside?

As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, the House of Lords should be allowed to express an opinion on what is suitable for registration. Coursing is a component of a conservation programme for hares and as such should be included. Amendments Nos. 5 to 9 would bring coursing in line with all other methods of hunting.

We have to engage with the Bill as it is written. We may feel that coursing should be excluded from the Bill, but it is in it and we are engaging with the Bill. I believe that we should place it on the list for registration. This is the right way forward. I support the amendment.

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