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Viscount Brookeborough: I had no intention of speaking because, coming from Northern Ireland, the Bill does not directly affect us. However, the recent debate has led me to believe that I should say something.
I completely understand why hares are a soft spot in people's minds. They are different from foxes. They are lovely animals, with certain characteristics which endear them to us. They leave their leverets out under trees or under grass and come back to them at night; they remain there, absolutely still, and you can walk right over them. They have amazing vision, which is not 100 per cent. Hence when they run, they run in circles because they cannot see directly ahead. When a hare comes towards you on a track, you may wonder why, when it stops, it does not stop facing you but turns sideways. It cannot see directly ahead and therefore, when it is chased, it goes in a circle.
For all these reasons hares are quite special. We have never had coursing where I live. However, everyone agrees that, under certain circumstances, hares have to be controlled. There was a time when, for two years running, we had 5,000 trees killed by hares. It was their food and so on, but damage to commercial activity is taken as a reason for killing hares.
We used to have hare shoots where, on neighbouring land, we shot up to 180 hares a day. Looking back on it now it was a horrifying experience—and not only because of the wounding figures we have heard about. One of the terrible things with hares is that beyond a certain range—which may be from here to the Throne—you really do not know whether you have hit one. The statistics do not cover such hares, except where their bodies are found.
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The other terrible thing which affects most people who have had to shoot hares is that, compared with rabbits or even deer—of which we shoot quite a lot—they scream when they are wounded. We stopped shooting hares 20 years ago. We do not shoot hares because there is a special feeling with them, and we love them. I cannot bear it when somebody shoots one and I am there. We have snipe shooting, but there are often hares on the bogs. I ban it, not because it is a dangerous ground game, but because it is such a miserable sport—such a miserable activity—to shoot them. So often they are wounded and you never know. Those Members of the Committee who have done it will know that the back end goes down and they shoot off extra fast. The inexperienced may never realise what has happened, but others know pretty well. Then you hear this terrible screaming.
I have no intention of being involved in this side of it. You can regulate most activities to do with culling animals. You cannot regulate shooting. You either shoot or you do not shoot—there is nothing beyond that. I have not been hare coursing. I am not sure that I would like it; I am not sure that I am for it. However, one thing is absolutely clear—it must be possible to provide regulations to ensure that the least damage possible is done to the welfare of the animals being pursued. There is no way, in my experience, that that can be done with shooting.
Viscount Astor: When one listens to the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, one gets the impression that there were two Burns reports. One report, which said that hunting was cruel, was printed and given to a select few, mostly on the noble Lord's side of the House, while a second, on which the noble Lord, Lord Burns, and my noble friend Lord Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, have spoken on many occasions, was publicly printed. It is quite extraordinary how the conclusions of the Burns report can be so clearly misrepresented on so many of these issues. I suggest to some noble Lords opposite who have spoken that they ought to reread some of the paragraphs in the Burns report.
The amendments are not about illegal coursing as such, but about hare coursing events. That is the issue. I have already spoken about illegal coursing, the difficulties that that leads to in the countryside and the difficulties that the police have in stopping it. It is out of control.
However, the question put to us by the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, is how hare coursing can meet the test of utility, least suffering and wildlife management if it is submitted to the registrar. I have my doubts about whether it can pass those tests; the noble Baroness has also expressed her doubts on some of those tests. There may be an argument for wildlife management. But if we believe in registration and in the independence of a registrar, we should not be afraid of putting this to the test of registration. I think that it is most likely to fail, but that is my personal view. I am happy to accept that all those who have a view give their advice, and that the registrars take as much expert advice as they require and come to a conclusion.
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The other issue that has been discussed is whether the amendments will affect any compromise. I do not see how we can know because we do not know what the Government regard as an acceptable compromise. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, will not tell us what he regards as an acceptable compromise. He will not tell us whether the Government would encourage licensed hunting or not. They do not seem to have a view. I hope that during the passage of the Bill, the Government will come to a view about what they regard as an acceptable compromise. After all, the Prime Minister has said on more than one occasion that he wants a compromise. Perhaps in the coming days the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, can ask No. 10 what that might be.
If the Government say that hare coursing events are in their view unacceptable, they can either move their own amendment on Report or come before the House and tell us. Then we shall know what structure the Bill could have. This is an opportunity for the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, to tell us something about the Government's thinking.
I believe that there should be registration and a registrar. I am happy for hare coursing to go before the test; if it passes the test, that is fine, and if it fails the test, that is fine. Then it is up to the registrar, on sound scientific advice, to make that judgment.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: I wish to make a thoughtful, short speech. I am not going to try to sum up the debate. A number of issues are important, perhaps the most important of which arises when one examines the Bill, which specifically says,
One of the amendments that we are discussing this evening would change that to,
My view is that the House of Commons would not have specifically put the words "to prohibit hare coursing" in the Bill, except for reasons that it holds pretty dear to its heart. One has to think about that, like it or not. I have heard a lot of very pleasant and good people in this Chamber making perfectly logical and good arguments in terms of conservation and other matters relating to hare coursing. However, we must consider the realpolitik of the matter, otherwise we could lose hunting completely. We must really think about that before going into vote.
I have some experience of beagling, as my adjutant ordered me to do it. I can remember it well—we ran a very long distance and got knackered. I cannot remember a kill of a hare, but we got a lot fitter as a result.
I find it difficult to support these amendments. My instinct is to support a minority, and this is a very important civil liberty issue indeed. But we must be shrewd in considering the matter. The problem is that
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hare coursing is specifically banned in this Hunting Bill; in fact, if the Bill is enacted, there will be only three months from the time when it goes through all its stages and receives the Royal Assent.
The argument, as I see it, relies on registration to control hare coursing, but many people in this country believe that hare coursing is unacceptable, even if it were registered. That is the perception; as I have said, I agree with many arguments put forward by Members of the Committee, but that is the perception. Members of the Committee may say that perception makes very bad law, and I would agree with them; but if we want to retain hunting, we shall have to think very hard about those issues.
Illegal hare coursing would be banned either way, whether we had registration or retained the existing clause in the Bill. We should think about the realpolitik of the situation, and think about it hard. The big question is this: does anyone really believe that Members of the House of Commons would accept this Bill with hare coursing in it?
Lord Denham: Is the noble Lord really suggesting to the Chamber that in order to save fox hunting we should ban coursing?
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: I am saying that, because I believe that it is the view of the House of Commons and that we cannot get away from it.
Earl Peel: The noble Lord rightly criticised those who condemned fox hunting on the grounds of perception or misconception. It seems extraordinary that we could allow those who wish to continue to course hares to be condemned to the same fate. There is no moral distinction between the two. Either we allow the registrar to make a judgment or we do not. I cannot see the difference.
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