---

Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, how is a person mugged in the street the victim of a motorist speeding in another part of the country rather than the victim of the person who committed the mugging, or the victim of the society which failed to protect him from attack?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, the victims' fund will be for everyone and we are refusing to exclude road traffic offences from that list. It is absolutely right to remember that if any other group of offences was causing the death of 3,400 people a year, there would be uproar about it. If any other group of offences involved injury to 36,000 people a year, there would be uproar about it. The fact that this is happening on our roads does not excuse the enormity of the pain caused by motoring offences.

Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, I was not for a moment suggesting that there are no victims of road accidents; of course there are. However, what I sought to ask is why is someone mugged in Edinburgh more the victim of someone speeding in Scarborough than the victim of society as a whole, which should protect him?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, society, through moneys already made available through the taxpayer, already plays its part. But what we are saying is that it should not be the taxpayer alone who makes
 
2 Nov 2004 : Column 219
 
this payment; each perpetrator of an offence should also make a contribution to a fund which will be set up and made available to various organisations which will be able to apply to it. That is similar to the way we have used recovered assets. For example, many noble Lords will know that recently we received around £4 million that will be used principally to set up sexual assault referral centres to which various bodies will be able to apply for funds. So it will be possible for various associations and organisations to apply to the victims' fund for support.

Those organisations will represent all sorts of victims: victims of road traffic offences, of sexual assault, of theft and of all kinds of other crime. Through their various organisations, victims will be able to access the fund. Equally, all sorts of perpetrators of all sorts of criminal offences will be asked to make a contribution.

Noble Lords may know that this arrangement has been used to great effect in many other countries around the world. It has succeeded in delivering the enhancement of high quality services for victims in need. We seek to do something similar.

The noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, asked what would happen in the case of multiple offences. The scenario that we envisage is this. Where a person is convicted of several offences at the same time, we would want the surcharge to be levied on the punishment for the most serious of those offences. I have already indicated that the level of the surcharge will be dependent on the level of the punishment. For example, a fine of up to £1,000 would attract a surcharge of £15, while a fine of £1,000 would attract a surcharge of £30.

In response to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Carlisle, I also made clear when I sought to outline how this is to work that it will be open to the court, if it felt that the fine as well as the surcharge could not be paid, for it to say that, if necessary, the surcharge could be reduced to nil. So it is not a case of saying that the fine may be improperly depressed or reduced because of the payment of the surcharge. A level of flexibility will be provided.

It is also wrong of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson, to fear that this is another removal of discretion. We have very much taken on board the fact that the courts would have real difficulty in setting individual surcharges. We have enabled the courts to make the charge quickly and effectively, and without any administrative or other difficulty. We think that we have provided sufficient flexibility for that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, commented that this would be a raid on the Christmas box. Perhaps I may assure her that it is not. This is something that will very much inure to the benefit of victims and therefore, contrary to what was suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Carlisle, it is directly related to the Bill because this measure is concerned with domestic violence, crime and the victims of crime. We have created the Commissioner for Victims and Witnesses, who I am sure will be very anxious to monitor how we deal with this.
 
2 Nov 2004 : Column 220
 

We say that this penalty is not being improperly imposed. It is not unusual for a sentence to include more than two elements. While it may be unusual in practice, there is nothing here which goes contrary to principle. Someone can receive a term of imprisonment along with a demand for a payment along the lines of this surcharge.

I accept that noble Lords would have preferred to have debated these matters earlier, and of course I take on board all the concerns and criticism in that regard. But we are where we are, and we believe that this will make a material and advantageous improvement to the ability not only to assist victims, but also—it is hoped—to underscore to those who do participate in committing offences that there is a cost attached, and that they will have to discharge their responsibilities. I hope that it will serve as a good reminder to people who have to pay the surcharge. Although they may think that they have committed a victimless crime, the surcharge will indicate that they have not. This small payment may serve as an appropriate reminder.

Lord Mayhew of Twysden: My Lords, I was hoping to hear an answer to a point I endeavoured to raise about magistrates reducing a fine they consider it appropriate to impose in order to permit the surcharge to be paid. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson, said that Section 164(4A) would deal with that, but in practice magistrates would do just what I have outlined if the justice of the case required it. Indeed, the whole wording of new subsection (4A) makes it clear that they are entitled to do that by stating,

"a court must not reduce the amount of a fine on account of any surcharge it orders the offender to pay ... except to the extent that he has insufficient means to pay both".

That states in terms that they may do that.

I hope to hear an answer to this, because the only response that I have heard seemed to be along the lines that it is a small payment, given that I think I am right in saying that the surcharge will be only £15 for a fine of up to £1,000. However, surely the next thing that will happen is this: enthusiasts of victim support services will say, "Look at this. The surcharge is a tiny proportion of the total fine. You must increase it, Secretary of State. You have the power to do so". As my noble friend beside me pointed out, income tax began at sixpence in the pound, and we know all about the rate of progression of these devices. I hope that the Minister will respond to that point.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, even if I did not specifically refer to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, by name, I believe that I answered the point by saying that the surcharge would not operate so as to reduce the level of the fine. The discretion is provided so that if the court is of the view that the level of the fine would be improperly depressed because of the inability of the defendant to pay both the fine and the surcharge, it would be open to the court, if it so desired, to reduce the surcharge—to nil, if that was
 
2 Nov 2004 : Column 221
 
necessary. I had hoped that I made that clear. Knowing how the noble and learned Lord usually attends to these matters, clearly I did not.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, as ever I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her answers. We have scratched the surface at this late stage of the Bill, but we have done no more than that. My noble friend Lord Carlisle of Bucklow started us on the right line when he said that what we really should be looking at is the principle behind this arrangement. When we start to look at that principle, I think that we have to agree with the judgment of my noble and learned friend Lord Mayhew of Twysden, that this is a half-baked measure. Unfortunately, it is a half-baked measure presented so late in the day that we shall not be able to take the ingredients out and start all over again. I wish that the Government felt able to do that.

I agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson, that this is one more piece of evidence to show that the Government are moving away from using the discretion exercised by judges towards trying to impose a straitjacket, in this case taking the form of surcharges. The fact that the noble Baroness says that the amount of the surcharge may be sufficient for the noble and learned Lord to pay if he is so unlucky as to be caught by another speed camera is not the point. We are talking about the imposition of a surcharge on everyone for which there is as yet no fettering on the Government; it is an amount that could be raised at any time in the future.

The half-baked aspect of this came out when the noble Baroness was striving to persuade us about the principle behind it; about where the money would go and why. She started by saying that it would be nice if there was an outbreak of civil obedience because then there would be no surcharge because there would be no victims. However, the whole tenor of her argument is that if there were no road traffic victims, there would still have to be a surcharge because road traffic offenders would be paying for everyone else. Even if there were complete civil obedience and no one ever broke a road traffic direction ever again, penalties would still be imposed by the Government if they needed to pay for other victims.

Although it is an illogical and half-baked proposal, I shall certainly not be able to sort it out at this late stage. It merely goes to prove that in future we need to be sure that when the Government start a Bill they put into it at the very beginning the proposals that they hope to see at the end; that they do not put them into the Bill as though it was a skip passing in front of the House into which they can throw the goods they wish to see in it.

It is not a satisfactory position. People who consider themselves to be honest drivers will find themselves called "serious and persistent offenders" for the first time in their lives when perhaps they have once in a three-year period exceeded the speed limit at a modest level. I hope that they never do so, but it is an extraordinary title to apply to such people. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
 
2 Nov 2004 : Column 222
 

Amendment No. 8A, as an amendment to Commons Amendment No. 8, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendments Nos. 8B and 8E, as amendments to Commons Amendment No. 8, not moved.]

On Question, Motion agreed to.

---