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Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, we on these Benches also very much welcome this order. May I also express my thanks to the Minister, not only for his clear exposition of the position today, but for forwarding to those of us charged with speaking on
 
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this matter the necessary documentation that lay behind many of the comments that he has made and which are very helpful for us when we are seeking to reply?

I echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, that it would be helpful if we put together a compendium, as he called it, of the powers that have now been transferred to the National Assembly. I remember that when the legislation was going through this House we were presented with enormously long schedules of powers taken from this Act or another Act. It was difficult enough at that time to comprehend precisely what powers were being transferred. As the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, said, it is difficult for academic lawyers as well as the practical lawyers employed by the Assembly to find out exactly where they stand.

That difficulty is compounded by an additional problem that was highlighted by my honourable colleague the Member of Parliament for Brecon and Radnorshire, Mr Roger Williams, when he pointed out that although this order transfers powers relating to animal health and welfare, it does not transfer powers relating to dealing with plant diseases to the National Assembly. The reply from the Minister there was, "That is all under a memorandum of understanding". It does not transfer powers, but there is an informal arrangement whereby the National Assembly, through its officials, will act in relation to plant diseases. That is only an example of what must appertain over a wide area of public responsibility and in addition to knowing what actual powers are transferred it would be useful to compile a note of the memoranda of understanding in relation to who does what, which will also assist those, including the Assembly Members, who are trying to cope with public business in Wales.

Coming to the specific matters referred to in the order, we welcome the fact that the power to tackle animal diseases and to deal with animal welfare has been transferred. I take it that that means that the National Assembly can decide whether to pursue a vaccination or slaughter policy in the event of an outbreak of foot and mouth disease. That is a matter of considerable concern. It was very noticeable in the last outbreak that Scotland moved very swiftly and held the line in the border counties just north of Carlisle where it is thought that the disease made an early appearance. Because it was able to move swiftly, Scotland's beef cattle in particular escaped much of the ravages of that disease.

However, one of the powers that has apparently not been transferred is the power to give compensation in such circumstances. Supposing that the Assembly were to decide upon a policy of slaughter, it seems a little odd that it does not have the power to award compensation and that the matter should be handed over to Defra to deal with. There are distinctive agricultural practices and distinctive problems in Wales and it seems only right that, if the power of dealing with disease is in Welsh hands, the Assembly should also have the power of assessing compensation.
 
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On the acceptance of property in lieu of inheritance tax, I echo the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, in thanking the member of the committee for giving us information about the way that the system works. I put forward the hope that in this context, if the National Assembly does decide to accept property in lieu of inheritance tax, it does not disappear into some warehouse. Matters that are considered by the committee that determines the intrinsic value of a piece of art and its actual value in the marketplace should not be locked up but properly put on display so that the public in Wales can have the benefit of the matters that have been accepted in that way.

I am rather relaxed about land charge fees being set by the Assembly. I have knowledge from my dim and distant past as a solicitor of dealing with local authorities. I do not think that the payment of land charge fees should be seen as a tax and to have a standard fee throughout Wales would be a good thing. It would be unfortunate if certain areas in Wales started to charge very high fees as a measure of discouraging people from buying property in that area.

The power to remove abandoned cars is also a welcome transfer. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts, referred to the desecration of the countryside. It is true that, in parts of Wales in the uplands where I frequently walk one sees derelict cars completely abandoned. It is not only an urban problem. There is even greater desecration from the trails of motor bikes and so forth across open moorland, but that is perhaps something that we can talk about on a different occasion.

I have tried to deal with the matters that are transferred in this order. We welcome the order, but we would welcome even more the implementation of the recommendations of the noble Lord, Lord Richard, that the power of primary legislation should be put in the hands of the National Assembly, so that it would not be necessary for these matters to be debated in Westminster at all. They could be debated by the representatives of the people of Wales who have been elected to the Assembly.

Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, as the former Member for Brecon and Radnorshire in the other place, I am aware that the critical problems that we had during the foot and mouth outbreak of 2001 were substantially caused by communication problems between London and Cardiff and people on the ground. I can only say that I wholeheartedly welcome the transfer of these functions. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts, congratulated the Agriculture Minister, Carwyn Jones, on the way in which he carried out his duties in 2001, which will make the task in future much easier. I hope and trust that that will be so.

On the comment made by my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford on the compensation issue, which I believe is very important, we need to know why that provision is not included—especially as it is a subject of disputes. There are valuers on the spot who know precisely what local valuations are of sheep and cattle, so I hope that it is not simply a question of trust with regard to Wales.
 
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I note that all the functions under the Slaughterhouses Act 1974 will be transferred. That is to be welcomed, because of the number of small slaughterhouses in Wales, many of which have been closing. That impinges on the upgrading of these places and whether sufficient financial assistance will be available for them to do that.

I realise that we have very limited time, but those were a few brief comments.

Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this short debate. I shall try to answer all the questions, but if I inadvertently miss one or two out, I shall write within the next day or so.

The noble Lords, Lord Roberts and Lord Thomas, raised the interesting question of whether there should be a compendium for all Welsh legislation. In principle, I totally agree with that idea—it is an absolutely terrific idea. As the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, said, it would be of enormous benefit to law students and people who wish to know about the constitution and devolution.

Although I welcome the idea, I understand that the UK Government provide, through HMSO, links to all Welsh statutory instruments made by the National Assembly for Wales and to all Acts of the UK Parliament and UK statutory instruments which apply exclusively, or primarily, to Wales. It may be that one can get that information but that it is not in the user-friendly form that it should be in. I hope that noble Lords will understand that it would not be proper to discuss how the National Assembly directs its funding in this respect. However, I can say from the Dispatch Box that I believe that it is a good, sensible and actually quite necessary idea, and I hope that we can make progress on it.

The noble Lord, Lord Roberts, asked some specific questions. He asked how certain we were that the Assembly would have the powers necessary to act on animal health and welfare matters. The Assembly is absolutely confident that the transfer of animal powers gives it the power that it requires, but of course the position does and will remain under review.

The noble Lord, Lord Roberts, also asked about the fees for searches and so on, and wants an assurance that they will be kept at a reasonable level and will not be a device used for raising taxes. The regulations on fees will be subject to debate in the Assembly in plenary, so there will be extensive consultation before anything happens.

When I was chairman of the Museums, Libraries and Archives Council, I was very much involved in the "acceptance in lieu" scheme, which has been a tremendous success. We must be careful not to misuse the word "property", because it does not have anything to do with buildings—it has to do with works of art and artefacts. It is brilliant that the power of approval of an object or work of art that is available is being devolved to Wales. I agree with the point made
 
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by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, that those works of art and so on should be exhibited. I once got into terrible difficulties by arguing that the 80 per cent of materials in store in museums should be given to schools or taken out of store somehow. That is a real problem: huge amounts of our national heritage in museums are in store.

The noble Lord, Lord Thomas, is concerned about making more available the memorandums of understanding, one of which as he rightly said was used for plant diseases. Obviously, it would be good if they could be tied in with the compendium idea, but they are already in the public domain, and copies can be obtained from the Assembly or the relevant Whitehall department. The noble Lord also asked a question about inheritance tax, which I believe I have answered.

On vaccination policy, the answer to the noble Lord's question is that yes, in theory the Assembly could have a different policy for an outbreak of foot and mouth disease. However, as Defra is the competent authority in respect of the EU, the Assembly is committed to working within the GB-wide disease control area. As for compensation, such payments will remain with Defra, as the Assembly has not sought any budgetary transfers on that matter.

I welcome the support given to the order, and thank the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, too, for his contribution.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

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