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Lord Higgins: My Lords, things have moved on. An enormous amount of consultation has taken place on all those issues. When one receives representations, one should take into account the interests of those making them—I am not thinking of any particular organisation when I say that. Some of the initial representations that were made when the Bill was in the other place suggested that it might be 2009 before we got to a risk-based levy.

I presume that the arguments to which the noble Baroness is referring are those that she has put forward this afternoon. They relate almost entirely to the position of small firms rather than the overall situation.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I refer to the quotation from the ABI that I mentioned in good faith.
 
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I was not present in the Committee attended by the noble Lord's honourable friend who was leading for the Conservatives, but he reflected the general position of the Government to phase in over a transitional period the risk-related levy alongside the scheme-based levy.

Small schemes are an additional problem. Given the amendments, small schemes would have to have a risk-based levy whether or not it was sensible or appropriate. That is an additional complication.

Lord Higgins: My Lords, I understand that it is an additional complication, although the noble Baroness did not put forward the other arguments to which she is referring. If we are to be fair to employers and companies generally, it is important to go to a risk-based levy at the earliest possible moment.

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that the ABI does not represent the pension fund industry? It is a supplier of investment management services to the pension fund industry. It is in a small minority in its view; it is not the view of the National Association of Pension Funds, or the major in-house pension funds.

Lord Higgins: My Lords, I was carefully avoiding being rude about the ABI for whom I have enormous respect. I said that when receiving representations from outside bodies, it is wise to consider whether they have a particular axe to grind. I am not saying whether the ABI has or has not in this case. I think that one should apply—as all good economists do—an appropriate rate of discount. One must consider the arguments on their merits while taking into account the views that have been expressed. Having considered the issue carefully, and having discussed it over a long period—the Bill has been in progress for a long time—the amendment is appropriate. I wish to test the opinion of the House.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 210) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 149; Not-Contents, 104.


Division No. 3


CONTENTS

Addington, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alliance, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carrington, L.
Chadlington, L.
Chan, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Dykes, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Feldman, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fookes, B.
Fowler, L.
Garden, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Greaves, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Jacobs, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L. [Teller]
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rawlinson of Ewell, L.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Trumpington, B.
Vallance of Tummel, L.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Windlesham, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President of the Council)
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Borrie, L.
Brennan, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter, L.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Filkin, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jordan, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Leitch, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Murphy, B.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prosser, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sewel, L.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Snape, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Tomlinson, L.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Warner, L.
Whitaker, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Wilson of Dinton, L.
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.


Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.


 
4 Nov 2004 : Column 495
 

Lord Higgins moved Amendment No. 211:

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Higgins moved Amendment No. 212:


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