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Lord Hoyle: My Lords, I shall speak briefly, as my noble friend has set out the case in detail. Although we hope that voluntary methods might succeed, all the practical circumstances show that they will not. I think that compulsion will be needed in the end. Where the employer makes a contribution, employees' take-up of the scheme is considerably better. Although I hope that voluntary methods will work, I am afraid that they will not. That is why I support the amendments.

Lord Lea of Crondall: My Lords, I guess that this amendment will not be agreed to, but it is very timely that my noble friend Lady Turner has tried to sketch out one way in which compulsion could work. Interestingly, not only did Amicus members vote in favour of compulsion but the results of a national poll,
 
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reported in a broadsheet last week, indicated that people across the nation favour it. There was a very high figure—at least as high as the one that my noble friend mentioned.

The proposal requires a tremendous amount of thought. It is very much on the agenda. Its timing will depend on when we get the definitive Turner report, no doubt within six or nine months after the election. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, will allow me to mention the word "election", because Adair Turner said that the definitive proposals would be published after the election. The amendment is very timely, because, along with my noble friend Lord Hoyle, I think that the issue is firmly on the agenda for consideration in the not-too-distant future.

Baroness Barker: My Lords, I am entirely in sympathy with the aims of what the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, is trying to do. On this side of the House our difficulty with the amendment is that it is prescriptive about the level of contribution. I say that with some feeling. As the noble Baroness may know, I work with very small employers. When stakeholder pensions were introduced, they tried their level best to find money to put into pensions for people who previously had not had any pension cover at all. They struggled with that, but they managed to do it.

This late hour is not the time to go into the extent to which stakeholder pensions have or have not succeeded, but many people who have them were never previously allowed to join pension schemes. When one takes into consideration not only that compulsion of this magnitude is a lot to put on the salary bill of a small employer and that for many small employers it will also probably have to cover people who were never previously covered, it becomes something of a mountain for employers to climb.

I have no doubt that the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, is travelling in the right direction. I hope that, as the noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, said, when, after the election, this becomes a matter that is more fully, openly and transparently discussed, we will find a greater degree of consensus than is possible under these amendments.

Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, I do not know if the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, has read the recent report of your Lordships' Economic Affairs Committee. In, I think, chapter 10 of that report, the point is made that the take-up of pension schemes by employees shoots through the roof, in comparative terms, when the employer makes a contribution.

Some time ago, when I was chairman of the Stroke Association, I set up a new pension scheme for the employees of that charity where equal payments of employer and employee, up to what we reckoned we could afford as trustees, which was 9 per cent, would be appropriate.

The trouble with the amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, lies in new subsection (12). So I go along very much with what the noble
 
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Baroness, Lady Barker, said. The idea of a 2:1 ratio of employer to employee contributions in a prescriptive way fills me with total horror.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, currently, we have a voluntary approach to pensions. Basically, my noble friend is arguing for a compulsory pension system in this country at what, I accept, is really quite a high level of contributions. A 10 per cent contribution from the employer, plus 5 per cent from the employee, plus the effect of tax relief, plus recycled rebates, as well as the basic state pension and so forth, probably produces about an 80 per cent replacement rate over a full working life, which might seem quite high in terms of the employer's contribution.

While pensions remain voluntary, the Government are committed, as your Lordships know, to increasing the take-up of pension schemes. We are doing that through our informed choice programmes and automatic enrolment proposals, where, again, the numbers shoot through the roof: we have spoken to senior executives of major companies that have gone to automatic enrolment where membership of pension schemes has increased from 47 per cent membership to more than 90 per cent.

As we discussed earlier, above all, where employers do not make financial advice and information available to employees, they will be exempt from doing that only if they are already making a contribution of at least 3 per cent. We hope that with all of these measures we are increasing the pressure on employers to make adequate pension provision for employees through employer contributions, and of course employee contributions as well.
 
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As my noble friend Lord Lea suspected, we shall not go beyond that until the second stage of the Turner report, which we shall have next year. If my noble friend is right that there is a growing movement towards compulsion and a growing consensus behind it, I am sure that the Government will want to take that on board. Until we have it, and until we have the information from it, the amendments are premature, even if the detail in terms of the figures were acceptable. I ask my noble friend to withdraw her amendments.

Baroness Turner of Camden: My Lords, I am not surprised at that response, and thank the noble Lords who contributed to the discussion.

It is all part of a general drive towards some form of compulsion. Eventually we shall get there—probably after the second report from Adair Turner. I understand why the Government may wish to wait until we have that report.

This short debate is all part of the general campaign and drive to what will eventually become compulsion, which we shall have to have if people on pensions are to have any sort of security. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendments Nos. 258 and 259 not moved.]

Baroness Crawley: My Lords, I beg to move that further consideration on Report be now adjourned.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

House adjourned at twelve minutes past six o'clock.

Written Statements

Thursday 4 November 2004

 
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Prorogation

Lord Grocott: Parliament will be prorogued on Thursday 18 November, subject to the progress of business.

Independent Monitoring Commission: Report on Paramilitary Activity

The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Amos): My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has made the following Ministerial Statement.

On 28 October 2004 I received a report from the Independent Monitoring Commission (IMC). This report was made under Articles 4 and 7 of the international agreement that established the commission. The report makes an assessment of paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland during the six-month period March 2004 to September 2004. I welcome this report. I have considered its content and I am today bringing it before Parliament. I have placed copies in the Library of the House.

The IMC's report concludes that some paramilitary groups have scaled back the intensity of their activity but none has materially wound down their capacity to commit violent or other crime. Dissident republican groups are the most committed to continuing terrorism. Paramilitary violence in the form of murder, shootings and assaults has considerably reduced in the past six months but remains at a disturbingly high level. The proportionate reduction is greater on the part of republican groups. Most violence is attributable to loyalist groups. The range of paramilitary activity remains wide. Paramilitary groups from both sides remain deeply engaged in serious organised crime.

The IMC makes several recommendations in its report. The first set of these are about paramilitary involvement in organised crime. I remain very committed to addressing the issue of organised crime in Northern Ireland. Partner agencies will work with our counterparts nationally and internationally to take effective action to disrupt the workings of the criminal organisations. If criminal proceedings cannot be brought, cases will be referred to the Assets Recovery Agency to retrieve the proceeds of crime, either through civil action or through taxation. The IMC also recommends that guidance be prepared for those who have to engage with paramilitaries. This is a complex issue. I will examine the recommendation in detail.

In April, I said I would review the current suspension of block financial assistance imposed on Sinn Fein and the Progressive Unionist Party on
 
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receipt of this report. I am giving careful consideration to this and I will of course take into account the matters set out by the IMC.

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