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Lord Higgins: My Lords, throughout our discussions on the Bill, we have been grateful to the Minister for the sympathetic way in which she has dealt with these issues. We are all concerned to help those who suddenly find, through no fault of their own, that their prospects for retirement have been devastated.
I shall take up three points which the Minister made. She rightly summarised our amendments as falling into four different categories: timing; cash; policy; and whether we have simply got it wrong. On the latter category, I have some sympathy with her view on one of the amendments, which is why we shall not move it, but we shall come to each of the amendments in due course.
8 Nov 2004 : Column 623
However, the Minister was being na-ve, if I may presume to say so, as far as the procedural aspects of the matter are concerned. She said that the provision will be dealt with by affirmative resolution and reassured us that it will receive full parliamentary scrutiny and decisions. I have two points about that: first, such regulations are not amendable, either in this House or the other place. The way in which one would like to change what the Government propose is therefore limited simply to saying "yes" or "no", as opposed to debating the issue as we are now and tabling amendments and so on. The Minister's reassurance is therefore unsatisfactory.
Secondly, although we on this side of the House reserve the right to vote against regulations on a "yes or no" basis, the Minister will know that that is very rarely done and only on matters of very great importance. It certainly would not be regarded as normal for this House to deal with regulations on this Bill by totally rejecting them. For both those reasons, it is important that we should do what we can to make amendments to the Bill at this stage.
On the issue of contributions, considerable concern has been expressed outside this House that, in addition to a levy, the private sector will suddenly find that it has to produce assistance in other ways. The Minister referred to the report, Insolvent Pensions Wind-Up—Report on Numbers Affected, which was published by the Government on 30 June 2004. Paragraph 8 states:
"In addition there is the question of what private sector contributions to the scheme may be forthcoming".
"We continue to work with the business community and others to explore the scope to garner support in terms of finance".
This is a worrying matter. It would be better if the situation were made absolutely clear. Therefore, I shall test the opinion of the House on this amendment.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 260) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 132; Not-Contents, 110.
Addington, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Biffen, L.
Blatch, B.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Bowness, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Craigavon, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dykes, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Fearn, L.
Feldman, L.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Garden, L.
Geddes, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Home, E.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Kalms, L.
Laidlaw, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
Maddock, B.
Marsh, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Neuberger, B.
Noakes, B.
Northover, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patten, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Quinton, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L. [Teller]
Rotherwick, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Sandberg, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Tenby, V.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trenchard, V.
Trumpington, B.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Warnock, B.
Weatherill, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Windlesham, L.
Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President of the Council)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhattacharyya, L.
Borrie, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
David, B.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Desai, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grenfell, L.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Leitch, L.
McDonagh, B.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mitchell, L.
Monson, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prosser, B.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Slim, V.
Snape, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Thornton, B.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Warner, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.
8 Nov 2004 : Column 625
Lord Higgins moved Amendment No. 261:
"( ) Payments made under this section shall be made to eligible scheme members regardless of their other income or capital."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, in moving this amendment, which stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale, it would also be convenient to debate Amendment No. 262. The noble Baroness, in her opening remarks, gave a general survey of all the amendments and commented in particular on Amendment No. 262. She indicated four categories of amendment, of which the last was those where the Opposition had simply got it wrong. I am prepared to accept that that is probably the case with Amendment No. 262, and I therefore shall not move it.
On the other hand, Amendment No. 261 cannot possibly be wrong because it encapsulates word for word the point made by the noble Baroness in Grand Committee. Therefore, I should have thought that it would be acceptable to the Government. It says:
that is to say, the financial assistance scheme—
Those were the expressions used by the noble Baroness.
We are anxious to ensure that the payments made under this section shall not be means tested. I was worried that the noble Baroness seemed to indicate that decisions had not yet been made on this policy area. It will be necessary to gather data on some aspects of the Bill, such as the number of people who may be affected, the cost and so on, but one need only take a decision in principle on this issue.
Given that the people affected will no doubt get significantly less than they would have done had their pension schemes survived, it would seem inappropriate if suddenly they found that they were effectively being means tested. Means-testing is the hallmark of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer; no one has done more to increase means-testing than he has. But it would seem wholly inappropriate for it to apply to distributions under the financial assistance scheme. The fact that people may have been more or less prudent otherwise and that they may have had income or capital otherwise ought not to affect the extent to which they are eligible for help under the scheme.
This is a very important point, about which Members in another place, not least Mr Frank Field, have expressed concern. In the light of that, I hope very much that the noble Baroness can accept the amendment and then we can move on to the next one. I beg to move.
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