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Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: No, my Lords. We have had a thorough, interesting and revealing debate. I believe that the time to resolve this issue is now rather than at Third Reading. First, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, for her support of my modest amendment that does not go as far as hers, but supports the principle of reporting. I appreciate that very much. I say to her that ultimately we hope it may be possible that the FAS will pay the same benefits as the PPF, but, at this stage, it is fair to say that that is not something that we would want to support because we do not yet know the scale of the problem. We shall have to see how it goes. I hope that the noble Baroness will support my more modest proposal.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, as the noble Lord appears to be indicating that he wishes to test the opinion of the House, is he saying that because these two amendments are grouped, that means that a vote on his amendment would also carry the amendment in the name of my noble friend, which would require that the FAS pay at the levels of the PPF?

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: My Lords, I am moving Amendment No. 266 and asking for support for that. I have just made it clear why, were Amendment No. 283 to be pressed to a vote, I would not support it.

I was most unimpressed, to be honest, with the reasons given by the Minister. I do not want a report every year. I believe that three-yearly is the right period for a proper report. I am in the investment
 
8 Nov 2004 : Column 658
 
management business and we have proper performance reviews at regular intervals. I was very taken with the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, that the prospect of a regular review on a reasonable basis like this concentrates the mind wonderfully. I believe that it will concentrate the minds of those running the FAS, of the civil servants and of the Minister of the day. I believe that that is the right time period, that that should be set out, and that one should work towards and expect that.

I was sorry to hear the spat about amendments just now. I hope the Minister will accept that we on these Benches have tried not to get into a large number of drafting amendments, but on this one we feel strongly. I cannot accept her argument, if indeed she is arguing that this is defectively drafted because of the word "adequacy". It is quite clear in whose eyes that is; it is in the eyes of the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State is being invited to bring the report and to report on the adequacy of the scheme. We would be testing and measuring it against the statements that were made when the scheme was set up. To me that is quite clear and that is the basis on which I am moving it.

The more I think about this and the more I listen to the interesting points about post-legislative scrutiny on a regular basis from the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, the more strongly I feel that this is a sensible amendment. To be frank, I am most unimpressed with the reasons given for not accepting it and I beg leave to test the opinion of the House.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 266) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 135; Not-Contents, 137.


Division No. 3


CONTENTS

Addington, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Biffen, L.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Boyce, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dykes, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Elton, L.
Falkland, V.
Fearn, L.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Garden, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Home, E.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Jacobs, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Laidlaw, L.
Laird, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
Maddock, B.
Mancroft, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L.
Noakes, B.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L. [Teller]
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Quinton, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Sandberg, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selborne, E.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Stewartby, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trenchard, V.
Tugendhat, L.
Waddington, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Windlesham, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President of the Council)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bhattacharyya, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Carter of Coles, L.
Chelmsford, Bp.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Desai, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fitt, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Brookwood, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grantchester, L.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
Kilclooney, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Leitch, L.
Lipsey, L.
McDonagh, B.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Moser, L.
Newcastle, Bp.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Prosser, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Sewel, L.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Snape, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Thornton, B.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.


Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.


 
8 Nov 2004 : Column 660
 

[Amendment No. 267 not moved.]


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