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Lord Dykes: My Lords, in view of the Minister's response last week about the number of civilian casualties from military action in Iraq and her response today, can she now give a more accurate estimate of the likely civilian casualties so far from military action?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, we have said that we will place a report in the House and I repeat that undertaking today.

The Earl of Sandwich: My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that one problem is that the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, having no office in Iraq, is unable to monitor the safe return of returnees, as would normally be the case? Does not that make this a particularly difficult case?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, we certainly hope that the UN will be able to get back in very soon. Noble Lords will know that we are gathering as much intelligence as we can so that we may make an accurate assessment. The noble Earl will be aware that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office does that on a continuous basis and I can tell your Lordships that officials from the Home Office visited Iraq in both April and September to make an assessment of the nature of the conditions and of the areas that cause the most difficulty. I assure your Lordships that that assessment will continue and will be comprehensive, using the intelligence that we have available to us.
 
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Licensing Act 2003

Lord Watson of Richmond asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they share the concern of the Association of Chief Police Officers on the implementation of the Licensing Act 2003.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Lord McIntosh of Haringey): My Lords, I agree with the Association of Chief Police Officers that those responsible for administering and enforcing the new licensing regime need to play their part, in conjunction with the industry, to ensure that the new system is effective. I am sure that ACPO agrees that we need active co-operation between the police, planning and licensing authorities.

Lord Watson of Richmond: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. However, does he accept that, while the Government's approach to 24-hour drinking in the Act—and, for that matter, to the licensing of casinos—is a strange mélange of libertarianism and authoritarianism, if I may characterise it in that way, it would help to allay the real fears of chief police officers and the wider community if the Government now gave full support to the idea that there should be minimum pricing for drinks in pubs and clubs and control over the timing of that offer?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, in response to the noble Lord's first question, I am tempted just to say no, but I will confine myself to saying that the Licensing Act is not about 24-hour drinking, it is about removing a particular single artificial closing time in an attempt, among other things, to avoid binge drinking at a single closing time, which is unfortunately too rife in many of our cities and, indeed, in the countryside and small towns as well, these days. I have forgotten the second question.

Lord Watson of Richmond: My Lords, the mélange must have thrown the noble Lord. The question concerned minimum pricing.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Ah, my Lords, happy hours. I am sure that the matter is being considered in government.

Viscount Tenby: My Lords, I declare an interest as a former magistrate now on the supplementary list. Does the Minister agree—I am sure that he does—that the overwhelming number of minor cases that come before the courts are alcohol related? That is shown all over the country. Accordingly, will the Government consider issuing stricter guidelines for the issuing of licences for licensed premises by local authorities?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I fear that the noble Viscount, Lord Tenby, is raising one of the most difficult, complicated issues on which we spent
 
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many hours when considering the Licensing Bill last year. He is raising again the issue of saturation and of whether it is possible to limit the number of licensed premises in an area. That is a matter for the local licensing authority and not one on which the Government can issue a diktat.

The Lord Bishop of Southwell: My Lords, does the Minister share my view that we can greatly assist our police forces and local authorities, such as mine in Nottingham, by applying the "polluter pays" principle to the drinks industry?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I think that the thought behind the right reverend Prelate's question is that somehow there is an additional burden on police. That is the reverse of the case. In fact, under the six licensing regimes which we had previously, around 1.6 million individual administrative processes had to be carried out annually by the police. The simpler regime that we are introducing will reduce that to around 170,000 processes. We considered the "polluter pays" principle in the National Alcohol Harm Reduction Strategy that the Strategy Unit published in March, but it was not thought appropriate to have a compulsory levy.

Baroness Buscombe: My Lords, will the Minister take to heart the words of Paul Evans, head of the Home Office Police Standards Unit, when he spoke in evidence to the Home Affairs Select Committee on 12 October? He said:

"if you take care of the little things the big things take care of themselves. If you take care of issues like alcohol, the anti-social behaviour and the thuggery that comes as a result of that, I think that will drive down some of your serious crime".

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, that sounds entirely unexceptionable to me and I have no reason to disagree with it.

Lord McNally: My Lords, will the Minister concede that the reality on the streets of our towns and cities is a million miles from the café society proclaimed when the Bill was introduced? Will the Government carry out an early review of the impact of this deregulation on public health, especially among young people, and on crime? The reality goes against the bland assurances that he is giving at the Dispatch Box.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I am not conscious of having made any bland assurances. In answer to an earlier question, I said that unfortunately there is far too much binge drinking, not just in our towns and cities, as the noble Lord, Lord McNally, says, but also in small towns, villages and the countryside. That is certainly not being bland and is certainly not offering reassurances. The noble Lord asks for a single review; these matters are under continual review.

Lord Colwyn: My Lords, what consultation has taken place with the Association of Chief Police Officers about licensing and the apparent danger of
 
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four or five acoustic musicians performing but acceptable risk of megawatt discotheques and large-screen television coverage of major sporting events?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Colwyn, likes to revive the most enjoyable debates that we had during the passage of the Licensing Bill last year. We are in constant consultation with the Association of Chief Police Officers, which continues to maintain its support for the Bill. Issues of entertainment and music licensing are part of those discussions.

Viscount Simon: My Lords, I am led to believe that in most public houses alcohol prices are way below those of non-alcoholic beverages. In the interests of road safety for those who drive cars from public houses, should not publicans be encouraged to lower the prices of non-alcoholic drinks?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, that makes sense to me.

Lord Avebury: My Lords, does the Minister recall that he and I have had correspondence over the past year on what indices should be used to measure the effects of the Licensing Act 2003 on levels of crime and disorder? When will the Government decide what those indices should be? Are they satisfied that time remains for sufficient baseline data to be collected before the Act comes into force?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Yes, my Lords, I have had the privilege of reading many long, closely argued letters from the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, on the subject. He proposes that statistics on injuries caused by alcohol be collected from accident and emergency units. That is not ruled out, but I suggest that in many incidents, which, unfortunately, do occur—I am sorry that here I cannot give enough bland assurances—those injured do not go to accident and emergency units; we must rely on existing medical statistics.

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