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Baroness Byford: My Lords, I support the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu. We have been through this debate before; I should just like to put a couple of matters in context.

I hope that the House still feels resolved to take the stance it took with a big majority earlier in the Bill's passage. The noble Lords, Lord Hoyle and Lord Graham, said that Members at the other end—the elected end—have felt bullied. I assure noble Lords that some of us in this House have also felt very bullied by the stance taken by those at the elected end, who said, "Whatever you do, we will override you". That is no way to try and get dialogue and compromise.

17 Nov 2004 : Column 1563

We were told that we did not address the Bill, that last time we threw it out. In fact, enough time was not given. We have been through that argument, but it should be put on the record. Alun Michael referred to it the last time, saying that if the House of Lords had sent back an amended Bill, there could have been a debate between the two Houses. There was no chance of that—the Government did not give us scheduled time. It was impossible.

Lord Faulkner of Worcester: My Lords, is the noble Baroness not aware that we completed the Committee stage of the Bill this year in just 46 minutes more than was allocated to it last year, when noble Lords talked at such length that we got only as far as Clause 5?

Baroness Byford: My Lords, I hear what the noble Lord says. He may want to refer to minutes, but in fact, we took three days. At the end of the time allocated to the Bill, there was another whole section to be debated and several of my amendments to be moved.

Lord Jopling: My Lords, let us put this in perspective. The amount of time that this House was promised last year, if it had been taken up, came to less than half the time that another place took in considering the Bill. So let us have no more of this stuff about this House having talked the Bill out or rejected it. What we were given for debate was less than half the time the others took.

Baroness Byford: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend.

Yesterday, Alun Michael said:

    "it is not this place"—

by that he meant the Commons—

    "that will insist on using the Parliament Act should that become necessary to resolve this issue, it will be the House of Lords that has provoked the application of that measure".—[Official Report, Commons, 16/11/04. col. 1291.]

I find that very unsatisfactory, and I wish to place that on the record tonight.

We have been bullied by the other end. They have not really wanted our compromise; all they wanted was a ban. That should be on the record. I support the noble Baroness's amendment.

Baroness Mallalieu: My Lords, I sense that these are arguments that we have had many times before and that the House is anxious to get to a vote tonight. I hope that, having heard all that has been said, noble Lords will follow me into the Content Lobby.

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, it may be helpful to inform the House that, if Amendment No. 1B in the name of my noble friend Lady Mallalieu

17 Nov 2004 : Column 1564

is agreed to, Amendments Nos. 1C and 1E cannot be called. I apologise for intervening at an inappropriate time, but that is important for the House to know.

7.57 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 1B) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 188; Not-Contents, 79.

Division No. 3


Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Baldwin of Bewdley, E.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bell, L.
Best, L.
Blatch, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Borrie, L.
Bowness, L.
Bragg, L.
Bramall, L.
Brennan, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Cameron of Dillington, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chadlington, L.
Chester, Bp.
Chorley, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crathorne, L.
Crawford and Balcarres, E.
Cuckney, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donoughue, L.
D'Souza, B.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Elles, B.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Geddes, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Golding, B.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goschen, V.
Greenway, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hanham, B.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Henley, L.
Heseltine, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Home, E.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Inglewood, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jopling, L.
Kalms, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Mallalieu, B. [Teller]
Mancroft, L. [Teller]
Mar, C.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Moran, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Neill of Bladen, L.
Neuberger, B.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Norfolk, D.
Northbourne, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Onslow, E.
Palmer, L.
Palumbo, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patten, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Peterborough, Bp.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Richard, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rooker, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandwich, E.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Simon, V.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Southwell, Bp.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Taverne, L.
Thatcher, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tordoff, L.
Tugendhat, L.
Vinson, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Waldegrave of North Hill, L.
Warnock, B.
Wilcox, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Windlesham, L.


Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Brett, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter of Coles, L.
Chandos, V.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dixon, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L. [Teller]
Fookes, B.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Garden, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L. [Teller]
Greaves, L.
Greengross, B.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Grocott, L.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Henig, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Jones, L.
Judd, L.
Laird, L.
Leitch, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
McNally, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Northover, B.
Pendry, L.
Prosser, B.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rosser, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sawyer, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Snape, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Triesman, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Warner, L.
Whitty, L.
Worcester, Bp.
Young of Norwood Green, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

17 Nov 2004 : Column 1566

8.9 p.m.

[Amendments Nos. 1C and 1E not moved.]

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