Examination of Witnesses (Questions 500-519)
MR CHARLES GEORGE QC and MISS JOANNA CLAYTON.
BIRCHAM DYSON BELL and MR JOHN McGOLDRICK examined
500. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr George. Mr
Cross-Examined by MR McGOLDRICK
501. MR McGOLDRICK: Mr Bates, let us look
at the table in Exhibit C3 which is distances from motorway junctions.
Is the most right-hand motorway junction in fact part of the
tunnel approach road?
(Mr Bates) Yes.
502. So the tunnel users are paying for that, not
the Department of the Environment or the Highways Agency?
(Mr Bates) Yes, I guess you could
503. Can we turn to Exhibit C4 which is people crossing
the Mersey. The Mersey is quite a long river with many crossings
on it. Can you define what you mean by the Mersey?
(Mr Bates) Yes. What I probably
should have added to that note is obviously it is the crossings
between the Wirral and Liverpool so it does not include the Runcorn
Bridge or the Thelwall viaduct or any other crossings to the east.
504. You have got two columns there. If I can concentrate
on the first column in Exhibit C4. That seems to show that 78
per cent of the people crossing between the Wirral and the Liverpool
are going by road. I presume that means the Mersey Tunnels, does
(Mr Bates) Yes, it does.
505. It also indicates that another three and a
half per cent go in by bus. Unless they are amphibious they go
through the Mersey Tunnels, do they not?
(Mr Bates) They do indeed.
506. That seems to indicate that the vast bulk of
journeys at the moment are made through the tunnels. Does that
not set some sort of limit on the growth in journeys through the
(Mr Bates) Set some sort of limit.
Sorry, would you clarify that?
507. If you take the tunnels that are competing
to some extent with the ferries that currently make up 0.5 per
cent of the river crossings and rail which makes up 18 per cent,
it is a very small amount that can be attracted into changing
the way that they cross the Mersey and start using the tunnels
and abandoning rail or ferry crossings.
(Mr Bates) I do not know. I am
not sure I gave the actual numbers. There are eight million people
a year using the trains, there are 34 million people going by
road, there are 1.4 million people going by bus and 0.2 of a million
by ferry, excluding the leisure services that the ferry estimates.
So it is 8 million people going by train.
508. As a proportion the vast bulk are already using
the tunnels, is that right?
(Mr Bates)That is correct.
509. I was surprised to a certain extent by this
because one of the tables that was submitted yesterday, table
B30 at page 87, indicates that only 62 to 63 per cent of Merseyside
households have a car. It implies fairly intensive use of the
(Mr Bates) Not
necessarily. It probably reflects the fact that longer distance
trips might be using their car more than public transport. It
says 60 per cent of households have a car, but the last column
was two or more cars so it does not necessarily reflect the total
number of cars.
510. The second column you have there is trips to
Liverpool city centre.
(Mr Bates) In the B table. The
B table was two or more cars. Although 60 per cent of households
have cars, there might well be more cars.
511. But this is people, is it not, not households?
(Mr Bates) Yes. There is more than
one person in a car on average.
512. The second column is trips to Liverpool city
centre. Different people might define Liverpool city centre in
a wide variety of ways. How did you define Liverpool city centre
for the purposes of this analysis?
(Mr Bates) It is as it is defined
in the local transport plan for the city centre movement strategy.
If Mr McGoldrick is really interested I can get a map or something
to show it to him. It is effectively what most people would describe
as the city centre.
513. I was trying to find out how widely it was
drawn, whether it was the central shopping area, which most people
would regard as the city centre, or whether it was a wider area
than that, which would obviously catch a greater number of trips.
(Mr Bates) It is a fairly tightly
514. The difference between the two tables seems
to be an indication that a substantial proportion of the people
crossing the Mersey are not in fact going to the city centre.
Would you say that was correct or not?
(Mr Bates) Certainly a reasonable
proportion are not going to the city centre, yes.
515. Did you say going or not going?
(Mr Bates) Are not going to the
city centre. I can get the exact numbers if people want them.
I do not have them to hand.
516. Why would you say that was the case? Have
you any idea?
(Mr Bates) Why
they are not all going to the city centre?
517. Why such a high proportion are not going to
the city centre.
(Mr Bates) I would guess it is because
there are lots of other places to go to in Merseyside where there
are jobs and social facilities and friends and acquaintances and
518. Can we turn to the table, Exhibit C5, car trips
to Liverpool city centre. You have various columns there. Can
you tell us what time period it is measured over?
(Mr Bates) The red block relates
to the a.m. peak and the blue block relates to the off peak.
This is information that comes from surveys undertaken in 2000
and I think the a.m. peak hour is from 8 to 9.
519. Is this a day, a week or a month?
(Mr Bates) This is a week day.