Examination of Witnesses (Questions 560-579)
MR CHARLES GEORGE QC and MISS JOANNA CLAYTON.
BIRCHAM DYSON BELL and MR JOHN McGOLDRICK examined
560. MR McGOLDRICK: So the Regulator for
gas and electric have set prices lower than the RPI?
561. LORD BRADSHAW: To be correct they set
maximum prices and there is competition below the maximum.
(Mr Bates) That
is correct.
562. MR McGOLDRICK: If we can skip C13,
and C14, and turn to exhibit C15, the Importance of Transport
Costs to Businesses. I think you said that this had been done
using some standard methodology to determine the answers, but
having done that you then presented the figures in three columns
divided between "very important", "quite important"
and "not important". Could you not have shown it as
just two columns, "important" and "not important",
in which case would it not be case that apart from Liverpool other
areas seem to regard transport costs as being fairly important?
(Mr Bates) It
is always difficult when you are doing a survey and you are asking
someone about the degree of importance or the degree of non-importance.
So what we do when we design the surveys is we always tend to
break down that response because something might be important
to me but it is not really important to me, so what we are really
trying to do is identify within it. This is exactly how the question
was articulated to business. By definition a business might say
everything is important to them and that might well be true and
there might be lots and lots of things that are important to business.
So what we are really trying to do here with the "very important"
is to identify where that is of sufficient importance that it
raises it above the general level of important issues for business.
It is as simple as that. It is a fairly standard design.
563. MR McGOLDRICK: Sorry to interrupt but
you are suggesting that quite important is not important then?
(Mr Bates) What
I was trying to explain was that if you asked a business about
almost anything they might well say it was quite important. What
we are trying to do is identify an issue that, as I said, is more
important relative to all the other important issues. This is
what we found with surveys. If you ask someone whether it is
important they tend to say yes. One could categorise this by
three or five or two whatever.
564. LORD BROOKMAN: Transport costs could
be so important to certain businesses that they would pick up
and move to another area because the cost of the transport is
exorbitant and difficult for them to manage their company.
(Mr Bates) It
could be.
565. That is what you come to as important.
(Mr Bates) That
is what I am saying. Interest rates are important to business,
availability of trained staff is important. Like I say, everything
is important to business. What we are trying to do here, as we
do with any kind of survey, is identify where something is more
important relative to the general level of importance. It is just
a design device to extract that. Yes?
566. MR McGOLDRICK: If we can turn to exhibit C16
the Strengths of Business Locations. One of the items on there
is public transport. If I am reading this correctly, tell me
if I am wrong, it seems to be saying that only somewhere round
about one to two per cent of businesses on Merseyside think that
public transport is a strong factor in where they locate. Is
that correct?
(Mr Bates) I
think it shows, as with a lot of things, that it was not seen
to be a strength of the location relative to anything else. What
we were really trying to find out, the way we were articulating
the question, what is it about this location, what is the strength
of this location relative to locations in general and it is true
public transport did not come across. That might reflect the
fact that public transport is considered to be okay anywhere and
therefore it is not strength of one particular location.It could
have simply been that.
567. Is it correct that the figure for the Wirral
is zero per cent of businesses thinking that public transport
is either zero or sufficiently small?
(Mr Bates) Or
very close to it. It is by definition a very small amount.
568. The other items that you mention that did not
directly refer to any table, you gave your view on how toll increases
were perceived on Merseyside. On what basis have you got that
view?
(Mr Bates) I
think what I said was that if earnings grow faster than RPI and
if tolls go up at RPI by definition over time the amount that
the toll costs relative to the income for a person will go down.
That is just a fact in respect of where it is, that was not how
they were perceived that is just a simple arithmetic fact. That
is all I was trying to articulate.
569. I take it that you do not live on Merseyside
and you have not undertaken any survey as to how toll rises are
perceived?
(Mr Bates) No.
I am obviously aware of the consultation responses on toll rises.
570. Right. You mentioned parking which obviously
has an overlapping effect with tunnel tolls. The difference between
parking and tunnel tolls is that parking costs apply to everybody
and tunnel tolls mainly of course apply to Wirral residents.
You indicated that parking was an important part of the local
transport plan; is that correct?
(Mr Bates) Yes,
parking is one strand of the local transport plan.
571. To what extent does Merseytravel control car
parking?
(Mr Bates) Merseytravel
does not directly control car parking.
572. To what extent does Merseyside City Council
have a significant control over off-street car parking in Liverpool
city centre?
(Mr Bates) There
is a mix of off-street car parking, some of which are controlled
by the City Council and some of which are privately operated.
573. Could you tell us how many are controlled by
the council and how much is in the hands of private operators?
(Mr Bates) It
would be wrong for me to hazard an opinion without knowing.
574. CHAIRMAN: I am not sure Mr Bates is
the right person to be addressing these questions.
(Mr Bates) I
am not the right person.
575. CHAIRMAN: We are not terribly sure
how relevant this is.
576. MR McGOLDRICK: You also mentioned the
congestion charge. Do you think a congestion charge in Liverpool
centre would be a more equitable way of discouraging traffic into
Liverpool centre than a toll that mainly applies to residents?
(Mr Bates) By
definition in terms of equitability obviously any charge that
is applied to everybody as opposed to a small group must be more
equitable.
577. LORD BRADSHAW: Surely if there were
an economic disadvantage of living on the Wirral this would be
reflected in the house prices charged on the Wirral as compared
to Liverpool city centre, and in fact house prices in the Wirral
are much higher which must mean people have in fact by deciding
to live there elected to take the tunnel tolls into account in
their decision. Everybody who lives there knows the tunnel tolls
are there so they must bring it into their decisions about whether
to buy their house on the Wirral.
(Mr Bates) Yes,
and I would stress that a lot of the work we have done, I think
as I have said, apart from the slight peculiarity of what I would
call the "two-way road effect", the fact that the toll
seems to keep activity on the Wirral, in terms of economic performance
and the way businesses behave, there is very little difference
between the Wirral and anywhere else in Merseyside. It does not
seem to be having that dramatic effect. If it was having a dramatic
effect, I am sure we would have picked it up in the surveys and
we did not pick it up in the surveys.
578. MR McGOLDRICK: You have mentioned the
Dartford Crossing carries considerably more traffic than the Mersey
tunnels.
(Mr Bates) About
twice as much.
579. How many lanes are there on the Dartford Crossing
compared with the Mersey tunnels?
(Mr Bates) I have
got a vague feeling it must be, off the top of my head, ten, which
is four in the tunnels and six on the bridge.
| 
