Examination of Witnesses (Questions 580-599)
MR CHARLES GEORGE QC and MISS JOANNA CLAYTON.
BIRCHAM DYSON BELL and MR JOHN McGOLDRICK examined
580. CHAIRMAN: I think each tunnel has two
and the bridge has four. I think that is right. I am trying
to picture it in my own mind.
(Mr Bates) And
the tunnels obviously have six.
581. MR McGOLDRICK:The Mersey tunnels have
six lanes? Is that what you are telling us?
(Mr Bates) Eight.
582. MR McGOLDRICK: So if I can just sum
up what you said, we have agreed that the Dartford Crossing has
eight lanes and the Mersey tunnels have eight lanes and you have
said that you think that the Dartford Crossing carries twice as
much traffic as the Mersey tunnels.
(Mr Bates) Over
the whole day. The difference is dramatically in the profiles.
Dartford is effectively flat over the whole day, so what happens
is that traffic builds up to a very high level and then just for
the whole day it is very high. The whole of the M25 is the same,
so you have a continuous, very high level of traffic all day and
then it drops down in the evening. The difference with the Mersey
tunnels, as you are aware, is that we have this peak and then
it goes relatively low in the middle of the day and it peaks again.
That is the problem with capacity, that really daily numbers
can be very, very misleading and you have really got to look at
peak periods and how that peak capacity relates to the peak demand,
not the daily.
583. MR McGOLDRICK: Thank you.
Re-examined by MR GEORGE
584. MR GEORGE: Could we go in the exhibit
bundle to B22 which is page 76.You were just saying that it is
important to concentrate on the peak hour and we recollect the
figures given yesterday of, in the middle of the table, the traffic
flow in the eight to nine am peak being, on a recent count, originally
6,250, but Mr Wilkinson said on a later count were 6,400 and towards
the top of the table we have got the 6,800 capacity. As far as
the question of benefits and disbenefits to the Wirral and so
forth are concerned, one can take several views and interpret
it in several ways, but if one concentrates on that present position
in the peak hour, what message does that send to you as a transport
planner as to what should happen for the future?
(Mr Bates) As
I have said, we are getting very close to capacity, so we are
undoubtedly getting congestion disbenefits now. Clearly something
needs to be done to address the rate of growth so that that congestion
does not get worse. One of the problems with congestion is that
it grows logarithmically as vehicles arrive, so it is not a linear
relationship. As more vehicles join the queue, the delay does
not grow in a linear way, but it grows in a logarithmic way, so
again as congestion gets worse, it gets a lot worse, so again
it needs to be addressed in some manner.
585. And does this Bill seek to address that point?
(Mr Bates) This
is exactly what the Bill seeks to address, yes.
586. MR GEORGE: I have no further questions.
587. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. It
seems a convenient moment to break for lunch. We will resume
at five minutes past two, if that is convenient. Thank you.
After a short adjournment
588. CHAIRMAN: The Promoters may have concluded
their case. We now come to the position of the Petitioners putting
their case. Mr McGoldrick, you have ready said that you are going
to call a witness. Does that still stand?
589. MR McGOLDRICK: That is correct, my
Lord Chairman.
590. CHAIRMAN: In which case your entitlement
in that respect is either to make an opening statement and to
call a witness or to call a witness and make a closing statement
but not both. I am sure you are aware of that.
591. MR McGOLDRICK: Just about, my Lord
Chairman, yes.
592. CHAIRMAN: I just wanted to make that
quite clear. You do not have the option of making both an opening
and a closing statement. You cannot have two bites at the cherry.
593. MR McGOLDRICK: Yes, I understand, my
Lord Chairman.
594. CHAIRMAN: Obviously you can take as
much time as you wish to present your case, but it would be convenient
for all concerned if we were able to come to a termination of
these proceedings today and all five members of the Committee
are able and willing to go on beyond four o'clock if need be provided
there is a very good chance that we would close by, at the very
latest, six o'clock. Can I just ask both the Promoters and the
Petitioners whether they can see any insuperable obstacle if that
timetable should be adhered to? Would you be prepared to go on
until six o'clock if need be?
595. MR McGOLDRICK: Yes, my Lord Chairman.
596. MR GEORGE: Yes.
597. CHAIRMAN: That is extremely satisfactory.
Mr McGoldrick, do you wish to make an opening statement or are
you going to call your witness?
598. MR McGOLDRICK: If I may call Mr Field
first. He has got a hospital appointment.
599. CHAIRMAN: You will have a chance to
make a closing statement, just to re-emphasise my earlier remarks.
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