Examination of Witnesses (Questions 760-771)
MR CHARLES GEORGE QC and MISS JOANNA CLAYTON.
BIRCHAM DYSON BELL and MR JOHN McGOLDRICK examined
760. MR GEORGE: Not at all because that
is under its own legislation from the 1990s which your Lordship
has in the bundle, but as soon as the period of the concession
comes to an end, the Secretary of State will have to decide what
he is going to do. Is it to become entirely free, which is after
all what the Petitioners here want, they want no tolls at all,
that is what they are set up to do, or is it to have an order
which says that there will be simply small tolls, just enough
to pay for maintenance, repair and operating costs or will it
be one which has a provision as at Dartford? I am not a gambling
man and no one knows what the prevailing feeling will be in 2012
but, certainly as at present, one has a feel that the probability
is that the precedent set at Dartford may well be followed. I
cannot put I higher than that but that moment does ---
761. CHAIRMAN: I think the Committee understands
that point, but you have clarified the point and I will not enlarge
on it. Thank you very much. There are no further questions.
I suggest that, at this stage of the proceedings, we will clear
the room as the Committee would like to deliberate. We have every
expectation that we will come to a conclusion certainly no later
than 6.00 and hopefully earlier than that. We will break for
ten minutes first.
The witnesses and public were asked to
withdraw
and after a short time were again called
in
762. CHAIRMAN: Many thanks for being so patient
and apologies, we had every intention of finishing this by six
o'clock and had it not been for the division I think we might
have done so, but we might miss it by a couple of minutes.
763.I think you will appreciate from the time the
Committee have taken that we have taken very seriously both the
promotion and the petition and discussed it at very considerable
length. The Committee are of the opinion that the Bill should
be allowed to proceed and that the Bill will be reported to the
House without amendment.
764. However, the Committee require that the Promoters
should give undertakings in writing in connection with the use
of two of the provisions of the Bill. These undertakings are
to be agreed, I repeat, in writing between the Promoter and myself,
acting on behalf of the Committee and with their agreement, and
they will be subsequently printed in a special report to the House.
765.The first undertaking concerns the new section
91 to be inserted in the 1980 Act. In subsection 3(e) of that
section the Committee would require an undertaking limiting the
"other purposes" referred to to the three purposes outlined
by Mr George in his closing speech, namely, the repayment of the
£28 million MDC loan raised from the local authorities over
the period 1988-1992; secondly, the carrying out of noise abatement
works or the making of grants under Section 109A of the 1980 Act;
and facilitating the achievement of policies proposed to be included
in a local transport plan.
766.The Committee also require an undertaking in
respect of Section 92 of the 1980 Act to limit the power of the
Secretary of State to increase tolls above the rate of RPI. This
should be exercised only in "exceptional circumstances".
767. Gentlemen, that is the opinion of the Committee.
Thank you very much.
768. MR GEORGE: My Lord, I wonder if I could
raise one matter in addition to the courtesy of thanking your
Lordships. It is the last undertaking; we can give an undertaking
that we will only apply in exceptional circumstances but it is
difficult for us to give an undertaking that the Secretary of
State will only do something in exceptional circumstances and,
as I understand it, there should be no problem and we hope that
that is directed to the matter which is of concern to your Lordships.
769. CHAIRMAN: It is and thank you, you are
absolutely correct. If you would like to look at clause 92, section
(1) - am now using shorthand so please do not quote me verbatim
on this - your requirement is that effectively the words "at
any time" should be deleted and "in exceptional circumstances"
should be inserted. However, we realise that that could only
be relevant to subsection (a). There was no sense in putting
in exceptional circumstances in reclassification of traffic. That
was not what we were intending at all; it was to do with the increase
of the tolls. I rely on your expertise and that of our drafting
expert to come up with wording that will cover that point. I
hope that explains the situation.
770. MR GEORGE: I am grateful for that clarification
and it is my understanding that there should not be any problem
in giving those undertakings in the appropriate written form in
the way in which your Lordships have suggested. Again, I am most
grateful to the care your Lordships have given to these proceedings.
You have had an awful lot of material and we are very grateful
for the way it has been absorbed.
771. CHAIRMAN: The good news is it is now
four minutes past six and the sun is over the yard-arm.
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