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Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I am very grateful for the welcome given to the Bill after the pre-legislative scrutiny, although I must say that I was arrogant enough to assume that it would happen. I have been well warned and am now thoroughly terrified by all the proposals for amendments that will be forthcoming. But I take some comfort from the assertions of the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, that where the Government and the Committee agree, the Tories will not seek to sow dissension.

Many of us have personal biographies of disability; others do not. Like the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, I, too, spent a few months in a wheelchair in the late 1970s. The high spot was going to Transport House, as it was then, where the top two floors were inaccessible by lift. When everyone came there for a meeting, the call would go out, "Kent miners, Kent miners!" and men as broad as they were tall would carry the wheelchair up the last two flights. The low spot was getting the wheelchair covered in dog shit and therefore on one's clothing. I do not know how people can bear that day in day out; it is almost like moral pollution as well as physical pollution. If only dog owners knew what problems they presented to people in wheelchairs they might show greater consideration.

I shall deal first with the routine business of how we might handle the Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, asked about a keeling schedule. I hope to produce an informal keeling schedule before Committee to enable a clear read-across. He asked about implementation timetables. I have details of when we expect to implement the main provisions of the Disability Discrimination Bill. Rather than read them out, I shall circulate them to all noble Lords who have taken part in today's debate.

Similarly, there is an array of different regulatory powers involving my department, the Department for Transport and the Department for Education and
 
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Skills. We are producing a consultative document based on Delivering equality for disabled people. I hope that our consultation document, which describes the regulations that we propose, will be published by the end of the year, but I attach the health warning that that may not be possible. Again, I shall ensure that as soon as it is publicly available it will go to all Committee members.

The transport regulations have already been announced by my noble friend Lord Davies, who, I hope, will handle those amendments in Committee. Ministers from the Department for Education and Skills will consult on the draft regulations on the power in Clause 15—what is a relevant qualification and the method of enforcement—in spring 2005. I hope that that deals with some of the handling points.

My noble friend Lord Carter asked about the interconnection with the other Bills. I think that he was asking for clarification in the Bill, as I am sure that he knows better than anyone in the House what the interaction will be. We have three different Bills for three different purposes, each with its own methods of seeking redress should it be necessary. In addition to this Bill on disability rights, there is the draft Mental Health Bill, which will provide a framework for the compulsory treatment of a few people, and the Mental Capacity Bill, which would empower people to make decisions where they can in clarifying the law where they cannot. We do not believe that there are issues about the way in which the three Bills interact that might need to be resolved, but obviously we will keep that under review.

The noble Lord, Lord Higgins, asked when the pre-legislative scrutiny recommendations would come into the Bill. All the recommendations that the Government accepted from pre-legislative scrutiny are now in the Bill. Further adjustments should not be necessary unless during discussion we feel that clarification is necessary.

As for Scotland, there has not yet been a Sewel Motion on Clause 3. If and when there is one, I shall report to noble Lords. I have no reason to think that there will be a difficulty.

I shall now seek to address as many of the issues raised as possible. Noble Lords will understand, however, that I would need an hour or two to go through most of them thoroughly, so, if it is accepted, I shall respond in writing to the points that I cannot deal with in person.

The first big issue, which was raised by my noble friend Lord Carter and addressed very eloquently by my noble friend Lady Wilkins, was about the medical model and the social model. My noble friend's phrase that it was very wise to be pragmatic in this regard caught my sentiments exactly. There is no tidy read-across between the degree of impairment and the degree of disability or discrimination that someone may suffer as a result of that impairment. One moves from a medical model through to a social one as a result.

I shall give a very obvious example. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Salisbury, who apologised for having to leave, was concerned about
 
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the isolation of those who are profoundly deaf; none the less, nearly 70 per cent are in employment. Yet barely 10 per cent or 12 per cent of people with a mental health problem which may in clinical terms be regarded as relatively mild—that is not meant to be a subjective comment but a description—will be able to enter employment. The difference between those two suggests a movement across from a medical model to a social one.

Several noble Lords asked why the Bill did not include a phrase to promote good relations. My noble friend produced a form of words about social inclusion which I found rather attractive. I re-echo the words of my honourable friend in the other place, the Minister for Disabled People, Maria Eagle: we are open to be persuaded about that if there is good evidence, but alternative wording may be preferable. In my view there is not an obvious read-across to, say, race relations because we are not, for the most part, talking about disabled people living as geographical communities, unlike ethnic minorities, where there are issues of integration and cultural separation.

We are also worried that public authorities might think that they should not take positive steps, such as disabled parking schemes, because non-disabled people are envious of them. Therefore, good relations are about equity between different ethnic community groups. The same may not apply where we may absolutely want and need—rightly so—affirmative action for disabled people to get an outcome such as equality of access. That is why there is not necessarily a tidy read-across, but we are not closed to the issue. It is not simply awkwardness or cussedness on the part of the Government; there are real problems about definition.

I shall try broadly to respond to the specific points raised according to clause order, although I am sure that I have got them out of order. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Salisbury asked whether prisons, as well as the police, were included in Clauses 2 and 3. We accepted the pre-legislative scrutiny recommendations not to exempt prisons from Clause 2 and the Prison Service from Clause 3.

The noble Baroness, Lady Darcy de Knayth, asked whether councillors and their election and selection by political parties came under Clause 2. It is not appropriate to intervene in the rough and tumble of the political process of selecting and adopting candidates; it is for local constituency parties to decide. However, having served on councils with wheelchair users and others with severe disabilities, I have not seen any discrimination where candidates on other grounds, such as their commitment to the political party, their experience and so on, showed that they were appropriate candidates.

The noble Lord, Lord Rix, related some horrifying stories in a very moving speech about some of the physical abuse to which people with learning disabilities could be exposed. Existing legislation in the form of the Public Order Act 1986 and the Protection from
 
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Harassment Act 1997 already protects individuals from abuse or harassment. In addition, if a case has a disability discrimination element to it, a court can take it into consideration when sentencing. We believe that the legislation already offers the appropriate legal protection to disabled people, although I accept that we must transform the culture—people's attitudes—rather than, necessarily, the legal framework for responding to abuses.

The noble Baroness, Lady Masham of Ilton, asked about suitable equipment in hospitals. The public sector duty will ensure that all public services have due regard to the way in which all their functions affect disabled people. They will have to plan better, more comprehensively and more thoughtfully. Services such as lifting patients are already covered in the Part III rights, but, as the noble Baroness said, it was the lack of a battery, rather than the lack of good intent, that was the problem. We are hoping that the Bill will put a "disability filter" on to people's perceptions of their everyday activities, so that they can ensure that there is no passive discrimination—if I can put it that way—through a failure to act in a obvious and appropriate way.

The noble Baroness also asked about the right to die and about "do not resuscitate" issues. They are difficult issues, but treatment decisions are already covered by Section 19 of the DDA. The public sector duty in Clause 3 will prompt public sector university medical schools to give due regard to promoting equality as part of student training. It should not be an issue, but we must deal with the culture among some doctors. Like the noble Baroness, I read Jane Campbell's piece about having to fight for the right to be resuscitated and about her husband's role in ensuring that those rights were respected. I found it shocking and moving.

Some difficult transport issues were raised. They are difficult because of the high capital costs in some cases, as the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, pointed out. I think that everyone recognised that transport might be one of the hardest barriers for disabled people to overcome in order to ensure full integration.

The noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, raised a series of issues. I may need to come back to him in correspondence on some of them. He asked how many people would travel by train if they could, but do not. I think that that is the way in which he asked it. We have no sense of the latent demand for train travel, but we know that 70,000 people have a disabled person's railcard, which gives some indication. Many more enjoy the mobility component of the disability living allowance.

The noble Lord, Lord Rix, rightly reminded us that it was not just a matter of wheelchair users and white stick users. There are perhaps 500,000 wheelchair users—one in 100 of us—and there are a million people with severe visual impairments—one in 50 of us. However, something like 1.5 million people—one in 30 of us—have learning difficulties, and their needs are different from questions of physical access on GNER trains and the like.
 
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The noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, asked why it would cost twice as much to go for 2017 as for 2020, the proposed end date. That is simply because twice as many vehicles would be affected. I am sure that that issue will be explored in Committee.

The noble Lord, Lord Higgins, asked about audio-visual passenger information systems on trains and asked whether Underground trains would be included. The answer is, "Yes". Rail vehicle accessibility regulations apply to underground systems as well as heavy rail, light rail and tram systems.

The noble Baroness, Lady Masham of Ilton, asked about GNER trains. New vehicles have been covered for just those problems since January 1999, but I suspect that the particular vehicles mentioned were introduced before January 1999. When refurbishment comes up, a proportionate response should take care of the issue. I am afraid that that does help in the exasperating mean time.

I will ensure that a copy of the Hansard record of our debate is sent to every organisation—clubs, railways and so on—that has been mentioned by name today. That might make them appreciate the concerns that have been expressed today.

Rail passenger information systems should be more widely available. They will be. Rail vehicle accessibility regulations require that PISs are provided on all new rail vehicles that have entered service since 1 January 1999. Obviously, there is an issue of cost with regard to refurbishment only.

The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, asked when new rail provisions would obviate the need for exemptions. The new compliance certification process, which will be introduced by Clause 7, should obviate the need for exemptions, save for exceptional circumstances. New builds and refurbishments will be closely monitored and controlled from the outset, and all vehicles will require a compliance certificate before they can enter service.

There are some other issues. We expect the transport code to be negative, rather than affirmative, but I understand that colleagues in the Department for Transport will next week discuss associated issues, including rail accessibility and so on, with officials of Mencap.

The noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, spoke about how bus stops can be blocked by parked cars. We recognise that accessible vehicles are only part of the solution. Other provisions in the Bill relating to public functions should ensure that access to the highway is also addressed. That is the right way to deal with that.

I was asked whether the code of practice for aviation would become mandatory. It cannot. Because they are international, aviation and shipping are subject to voluntary codes of practice, but we will monitor those codes of practice. We expect a report on compliance in the second half of 2005. If the voluntary approach proves ineffective, we will consult to see how much further we can go. However, it is an international issue, not just a domestic British issue, which we have to address.
 
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Why are discriminatory adverts by service providers not also to be outlawed? The simple answer is that we have not found that to be a problem. If it is, we will come back to it.

I was asked about clubs and lifts. Again, there is the question of whether the cost of adjustment is reasonable, whether the building is listed and whether the changes can be made in a listed building. I will repeat the names given by the noble Baroness: White's and Brooks's. During my time in a local authority, we were told that such things would not be possible in various listed buildings, including the Octagon Chapel, probably the finest Dissenting chapel—a Quaker chapel—of the 1720s, built by a fine architect whose name, I think, was John Goldsmith. We found ways of ensuring accessibility into very fine grade 1 listed buildings. That benefited not only disabled people but elderly people, people with children, people with shopping bags and the like. Some good work has been done in Liverpool, making sure that listed heritage buildings increase accessibility without in any sense deforming the building. We must continue to ensure that all architects are aware of the issue.

I was pressed by noble Lords on the question of schools. Noble Lords may have overlooked the full situation for schools under the DDA. Schools are employers, service providers and educators. As such, they are already covered by Parts II, III and IV of the DDA. In particular, the Special Educational Needs and Disability Act 2001 covered pupils. I think that, perhaps, people do not fully realise how far schools already come within the legislation.

I was asked about footpaths by the noble Baroness, Lady Darcy de Knayth. I guessed that she would do that. Basically, the overall effect of Clause 2 will be to ensure that the activities of the public sector, if they are functions, are covered by the DDA. That means that, if a highway authority has functions in respect of footpaths—such as providing and maintaining them—it will be covered by Part III of the DDA, as extended by this Bill. There may remain some narrow exceptions that we will, no doubt, explore in Committee, but the noble Baroness is right about the broad thrust.

The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, asked me about dwellings. The noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, asked about commercial property. I know that it is the point at which the Government do not share fully the views of the scrutiny committee or some members of it, but I must emphasise the fact that the Bill does not cover physical features internal to buildings. It covers issues such as a tenant's ability to read a tenancy agreement provided in the appropriate format and the need for portable aids and appliances, where appropriate.

I have had some personal experience of the issue, when I was reinstating the house of my parents, both of whom were disabled, after they died. I took out the stair lift and replastered the hall walls; replastered the bathroom after taking out the bath hoist and grab rails; and I redecorated. The cost then was £3,000 or £4,000. Where a tenant agrees to do that, that is fine. But when a tenant dies, where does the cost of
 
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reinstatement fall, given that 40 per cent of landlords own only one property? Therefore, as with an inherited property, there may not be a great commercial estate.

There are quite difficult issues here regarding the costs of reinstatement and the degree to which existing legislation can be tested in court about unreasonableness. So it is a test about reasonableness which, no doubt, we can explore further. The same applies to commercial premises. Clause 13 does not require such changes so the RIA estimates are low precisely because they are only about formats, types and so on. Adjustment by employers with commercial premises is already covered under Part 2—reactive duties—and for customers under Part 3—anticipatory duties.

Finally, I turn to definitions. Obviously, we will debate further issues about depression. I am sure that we will come back to that. Clearly, there has been a wide welcome to the Government departing from the term "clinically well recognised".

I was asked by the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, about cancer. Certain cancers will be excluded from being covered by the DDA definition. We are consulting on basal skin cell cancer and squamous cell cancers. My understanding is that this is a one-off intervention. One is not therefore dealing with long periods of treatment possibly requiring chemotherapy, radiotherapy and so on, which would naturally need to be covered before it became fully symptomatic.

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