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Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I do not think that these are occasional ad hoc meetings. The Prime Minister and President Musharraf discussed Kashmir, as I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, knows, having had a look at the joint statement that was issued after their discussions. The Prime Minister encouraged President Musharraf to make further efforts to find a lasting resolution to the outstanding issues. Moreover, the composite dialogue, to which I referred in my opening remarks, has a very specific part dedicated to the Kashmiri question. So this is part of the dialogue between India and Pakistan, but the Kashmiri question will be one of the underlying difficulties that will be constantly revisited in the course of the composite dialogue.

The Earl of Sandwich: My Lords, one of the most encouraging things that President Musharraf said to
 
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parliamentarians and others was that he gave a high priority to education, specifically in the Madrassahs, which have been the main source of the political extremism that we have seen. Are the Government giving the same high priority in their aid programme and in other ways to education, not only through the Madrassahs but in schools in general?

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I was not fortunate enough to hear President Musharraf's address to parliamentarians, but a number of your Lordships have gone out of your way to tell me during the week how much his speech was appreciated, both for the breadth of the subject matter covered and for the candour with which President Musharraf addressed the issues.

Education is a vital part of the United Kingdom's development programme with Pakistan. Our commitment to Pakistan is demonstrated by the approximately £70 million of development assistance that we are giving this year. Social development, particularly in education and health, continues to be a very high priority in that development programme.

Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, further to that reply, does the Minister agree that President Musharraf made a very favourable impression during his visit here, particularly with regard to the way in which he is now determined to tackle internal and external terrorism and the way in which he is addressing the Kashmiri issue, although he faces a minefield of difficulties?

Did the Minister notice that in one interview the president said that he thought that inside Pakistan they had broken the back of Al'Qaeda? If that is so, it is good news and very important for us. Can the Minister confirm, yet again, that we are now prepared to give full support at intelligence, technical co-operation and military assistance levels to mop up Al'Qaeda finally in the mountains of Pakistan and to carry through the war on terrorism to a successful conclusion?

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, the threat of global terrorism is one of the major issues under discussion between this country and Pakistan. It featured heavily in the discussions between my right honourable friend and the president of Pakistan. As to the questions involving terrorism in its broadest sense—particularly terrorism coming over the border from Afghanistan—and the way in which terrorism and crime can operate alongside each other, the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, will have noticed that in the joint declaration my right honourable friend thanked the president for his courage in standing firm against terrorism, which is such a big threat to international security. There was agreement that, whatever the cause of terrorism, it should be tackled and that there should be increased bilateral co-operation, especially in dealing with the terrorist networks that we know are working in Pakistan and in this country.
 
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Baroness Falkner of Margravine: My Lords, did any discussions take place on Kashmir and the cross-border infiltration from the Pakistani side? Does the Minister see any possibility of assistance through a UN peacekeeping force so that there is independent monitoring of the issue?

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I had hoped that my initial Answer indicated that there had been helpful discussions of the issues surrounding Kashmir. We very much welcome the fact that the ceasefire introduced in November 2003 still holds good, and we warmly encourage the positive development in the composite dialogue between Pakistan and India. However, the question needs to be resolved by India and Pakistan. It is, as the noble Baroness will know, a delicate question. We are giving our full support to the engagement of the two countries on the issue but, as my initial Answer pointed out, we hope that any solution takes into account the wishes of the Kashmiri people.

Deepcut Army Barracks

Lord Ashley of Stoke asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they will reconsider the procedures for investigating the allegations concerning events at the Deepcut army barracks.

Baroness Crawley: My Lords, it is a civil police responsibility to investigate deaths of military personnel at military establishments in the United Kingdom. Surrey Police has investigated the four deaths at Deepcut. A number of allegations of mistreatment were recorded by Surrey Police during its investigation and these have been passed to the Army. Investigative action in respect of these allegations requires the consent of the individuals concerned. Such consent has been received in two cases, which are now with the Royal Military Police.

Lord Ashley of Stoke: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that response. Is she aware that, although the deaths are relevant, the Question is about more than the deaths; it is about the treatment of soldiers generally at Deepcut? Is she further aware that by setting up this seventh, limited, inquiry and refusing, yet again, a public inquiry, the Government are digging a deeper hole for themselves and compounding the damage already caused to soldiers, their families and the Army itself? It is simply not possible to resolve the appalling problems of four deaths in Deepcut and repeated allegations of bullying, brutality, sexual abuse and torture without a public inquiry. With a public inquiry, the end of this saga could be in sight. Without a public inquiry, we will have endless bitterness, anger and frustration.

Baroness Crawley: My Lords, the Government are not so far convinced that a public inquiry will achieve additional information to that already achieved through
 
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all the various police, Army and coroner investigations and inquiries. They have already reported. However, as my noble friend said in his supplementary question, a further review by a fully independent figure was announced by the Minister of State for the Armed Forces in the House of Commons. The Government are not complacent on these matters.

Lord Garden: My Lords, does the Minister not agree that this, the seventh inquiry that the Ministry of Defence has put together, will not satisfy people given the scale and nature of the allegations that are being made? Can the Minister assure the House that, following the Adjutant-General's concerns, sufficient resources are now being given to the Army Training and Recruiting Agency so that it can provide adequate levels of supervision at all establishments where there are young trainees?

Baroness Crawley: My Lords, continual investment is being made in training establishments. As I have said, the Government are not complacent about reports of bullying and harassment. They take the reports extremely seriously and investigate all substantive allegations. The inquiry is continuing and will report in March. The Government have announced an independent inspection of all Armed Forces training establishments, including initial training and welfare. For instance, 12 inspectors from the Adult Learning Inspectorate have been at Deepcut for eight days in the past fortnight.

Lord Laming: My Lords, does the Minister agree that the reports of how these young men have been allegedly treated is a source of deep and widespread concern? Although the House, no doubt, will be willing to accept what the Minister says about the lack of complacency, does she understand that that view is not widely held in the country?

Baroness Crawley: My Lords, I understand and the Government understand and sympathise deeply with the desire of the families of the soldiers who have died—and of any young men and women in our Armed Forces who are being bullied, harassed or feel intimated—to get at the full truth. That is why we have been so thorough in all the investigations. Taking the police investigation as one example, 900 witnesses have given 1,500 witness statements. That is only one of these investigations. We will continue until we have got at the truth.

Lord Ashley of Stoke: My Lords, if, as my noble friend says, we want to get the full truth, what is the real reason for the Government refusing a public inquiry?

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