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Lord Glentoran: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for the information on timing. Does she think that the IRA's statement this morning in any way contradicts paragraph (5), or clarifies it from the IRA's angle?

Baroness Amos: My Lords, we want to work with the statements that were agreed as part of this process and that is precisely why we published the document yesterday. It is very important for everyone to see how far we have come towards agreeing on these issues. There are some 22 pages. There is agreement on just about everything bar that one issue of transparency and photographs. That is why I wish to stick with these documents and the compromise that we have reached on the issue of photographs, whereby the photographs would be taken at the point at which the arms were decommissioned but not published until such time as the Executive was up and running.
 
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Perhaps I may answer the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton. The issues would come before the House in the event that we reached full agreement, because a Bill would be necessary to give effect to institutional changes. That addresses the noble Lord's points with respect to the committee scrutinising all aspects of the work of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister.

Lord Dykes: My Lords, before the Minister sits down—

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, perhaps I should explain to the noble Lord that Back-Benchers can ask individual questions and have them answered.

Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: My Lords, we all like to see progress in Northern Ireland, particularly those of us who have lived and worked there on the political scene for many years. Perhaps I may ask the noble Baroness about proposals by the British and Irish Governments for changes in Strands Two and Three institutions following the review found in Annex B. Can she clarify whether what appears to me to be significant embellishment of the North-South Ministerial Council is likely to usurp the integrity of the Northern Ireland Assembly? Has there been agreement by the main Northern Ireland political parties to the proposals, particularly those in paragraphs 6 to 9 in Annex B?

Baroness Amos: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, will know that when we moved into this process, following the Northern Ireland Assembly elections, it became clear that we would have to tweak the agreement in some way, particularly as the DUP was not party to that agreement. That is reflected in this document. In no way is there any intention to usurp the authority or the integrity of the Assembly. While I cannot speak for the Northern Ireland parties, I am absolutely sure that they would not sign up to anything which they thought would usurp the authority of that assembly. I hope that the noble Lord will feel confident that we have ensured that we consult the political parties in Northern Ireland, because it is important that all the parties are on board.

Lord Dykes: My Lords, I am grateful for the guidance given by the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington. Returning to transparency and photographs, does the Lord President of the Council agree that—bearing in mind that such an enormous prize is at stake and that there is such huge goodwill, both among the British public in general and the overwhelming majority of the public in Northern Ireland, who are so anxious to see a proper agreement concluded after so much human effort and many hours spent on it—if anything went against that, and if the decommissioning authority were to be content in the coming weeks with the proposed
 
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compromise suggestions on transparency, if anyone were to oppose that thereafter, it would be a heavy burden on any particular entity or group?

Baroness Amos: My Lords, we all recognise that the issue of transparency and, indeed, photographs has been part of the negotiations over many, many months. We proposed a compromise. Noble Lords will know that that compromise was not accepted. We intend to continue to try to move forward on that particular issue. I feel strongly, given how far we have come, that there must be room for manoeuvre on that issue. We will seek to find that room. That is why my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland will be engaging with the Irish Foreign Minister in discussions with the parties next week. We will continue this process. We have to remain hopeful, given how very far we have come.

Lord King of Bridgwater: My Lords, the Leader of the House will be aware that she is engaged in, we hope, the closing stages of a process that has lasted an incredibly long time. It involved my noble friend Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, who was here earlier and is unfortunately not able to be here now. At the earliest stages I was involved myself in that process. That shows how long this matter has taken.

I well recall a meeting of the British-Irish Inter-parliamentary Body over in Church House at the time of the meeting between Albert Reynolds and John Major, in which the first outline of the agreement was discussed. There seemed to be a general atmosphere of goodwill, until suddenly the matter of decommissioning was discussed. It seemed obvious to every British Member of Parliament and to the TDs from the Dail that that was a total failure to understand the history of Ireland and a deliberate attempt to frustrate the process by raising a difficult issue.

As she is familiar with this process, does the Minister agree that it does not matter whether the Governments can cobble together a deal or whether political leaders can be persuaded finally to sign up to it on ambivalent statements; it depends on whether it commands the trust of the people in Northern Ireland of both communities?

Having read this document, admittedly only briefly, and having heard my noble friend Lord Glentoran comment on the IRA statement of this morning, it is clear that there are uncertainties in this document that will obviously still not yet command full trust. Representations are being made to the IRA on behalf of the Sinn Fein leadership regarding policing, without any statements on what happens if the IRA does not agree or applies further conditions. It is easy to raise all the difficulties, but there is much ground still to be covered. Because trust is so important, we can take all the photographs that we like of verifiable decommissioning of weapons, but the other word in the Statement to which the Lord President attached great importance is not just "verifiably" but "completely". There must be trust, which will not be verifiable in any obvious sense, that there has been complete decommissioning of all arms that the IRA may possess.
 
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All of us who have lived with the process for as long as it has gone on wish it well and hope that there will be the trust, but obviously some important issues must still be addressed. Important consideration must be given to the deep concerns of both communities.

Baroness Amos: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord King of Bridgwater, has been involved in the process much longer than I have. I pay tribute not only to his work but to that of many noble Lords on his side of the House who have been involved in the process for a very long time, in this House and the other place. We have built on that work.

The noble Lord is right that trust and confidence are an issue. The response of the people of Northern Ireland will be very important in the process. We all agree that the people of Northern Ireland want peace. I have visited Northern Ireland and seen the tremendous difference made to some communities there. Those communities want the continuance of that degree of security and stability that they are beginning to see.

What happens on the ground as a result of the process will be a huge motivator in pushing the political parties to work for greater security and stability in Northern Ireland. I recognise the noble Lord's points, but we must also recognise the push that will come from the people of Northern Ireland themselves once—I hope that it is once—we get past this further hurdle of transparency.

Baroness Park of Monmouth: My Lords, I, too, have read with great interest and respect the proposals of the two Governments. I am as sorry as anyone that no decision has been reached. However, the IRA is very good at pushing us to the edge, and it will go on doing so if it can. In Annex C, it states:

"all IRA volunteers have been given specific instructions not to engage in any activity which might thereby endanger the new agreement".

That suggests that it is still a pretty active force.

In Annex D, it is proposed that two clergymen be nominated to see the decommissioning of arms. If noble Lords will forgive me for suggesting it, I cannot understand why the commission has never adopted the provision made in the original legislation that two ordnance officers from the American and Canadian armies should be present because they would know what they were seeing. With respect, I do not think that even the most intelligent clergyman is likely to be able to recognise exactly how much Semtex he is looking at or whether he is looking at a rocket launcher.

I hope that it is noted that Annex F, a Sinn Fein statement on policing, says that Sinn Fein does not intend to discuss the issue until the legislation is enacted. It always wants its part of the agreement first. Although I absolutely agree that it is vital that Northern Ireland should not continue in the present situation, the Government are right not to accept any solution that does not convince the ordinary man in the street that the IRA has not only given up its arms but stopped using them to threaten and kill people.
 
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One of the great things that the Government have done, which I greatly respect, is the setting up of the Independent Monitoring Commission and the organisation to combat crime. Together those two measures have done more than anything else in the past year to show that the Government are really facing up to what people and the economy suffer from the paramilitaries. I hope that they will be urged to act even further, because I still believe that the IRA is bluffing. It is communist-trained, and communists' notion of negotiation is to ask for what they want and to give absolutely nothing in return for as long as they can get away with it. So, please, be tough as well as compassionate.

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