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Baroness Carnegy of Lour: My Lords, before the noble and learned Lord sits down, is he saying that all the employees of the Supreme Court will be civil servants and that there will be no third-party arrangements? Will the cleaners be civil servants?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, they will be civil servants. Obviously, that does not rule out the chief executive entering into contract cleaning arrangements with cleaning companies but, in those circumstances, the cleaners would be employed by the cleaning company.
Lord Kingsland: My Lords, before the noble and learned Lord sits down, I should like to turn again to the terms of Amendment No. 118B. I accept the point about Treasury cash limits, and I accept that the Treasury will pass the money directly to the Supreme Court without the interposition of the Minister, but I am still puzzled by the need for the Minister to play a role in the appointment of staff.
If the President of the Supreme Court knows exactly how much money he will get over any given period from the Treasury, why can he not appoint his own staff within that cash limit? Why does the Minister have to play a role—indeed, it seems to be an exclusive role—in deciding who the President of the Supreme Court will employ; despite the fact that the Minister already has the reassurance that the president would be acting under cash limits?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, the president is the appointer, which means the formal person who employs. The chief executive determines these matters. He has to get the agreement of the Minister, but he is
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the accounting officer. So in operational terms it is the chief executive not the Minister who is ultimately responsible for ensuring those arrangements.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 118B:
"OFFICERS AND STAFF
(1) The President of the Supreme Court may appoint officers and staff of the Court.
(2) It is for the chief executive of the Supreme Court to determine these matters with the agreement of the Minister—
(a) the number of officers and staff of the Court;
(b) subject to subsection (3), the terms on which officers and staff are to be appointed.
(3) The civil service pension arrangements for the time being in force apply (with any necessary adaptations) to the chief executive of the Court, and to persons appointed under subsection (1), as they apply to other persons employed in the civil service of the State.
(4) In subsection (3) "the civil service pension arrangements" means—
(a) the principal civil service pension scheme (within the meaning of section 2 of the Superannuation Act 1972 (c. 11), and
(b) any other superannuation benefits for which provision is made under or by virtue of section 1 of that Act for or in respect of persons in employment in the civil service of the State."
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 119 to 121 not moved.]
Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 122:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 39 [Officers and staff: appointment by Minister]:
[Amendments Nos. 123 and 124 not moved.]
Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 125:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 40 [Staff: provision by third parties]:
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Carter): My Lords, I should tell the House that if Amendment No. 126 is agreed to I cannot call Amendments Nos. 128 and 129 on the grounds of pre-emption.
[Amendments Nos. 126 to 129 not moved.]
Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 130:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
14 Dec 2004 : Column 1249
Clause 41 [Services: provision by third parties]:
[Amendment No. 131 not moved.]
Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 132:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 133 to 135 not moved.]
The Deputy Speaker: My Lords, I should inform the House that if Amendment No. 135A is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment No. 136 on the grounds of pre-emption.
[Amendment No. 135A not moved.]
Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 136:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 137 and 138 not moved.]
The Duke of Montrose moved Amendment No. 139:
"(3) The Minister must also send a copy of any annual report to—
(a) the Scottish Parliament;
(b) the Northern Ireland Assembly; and
(c) the National Assembly for Wales."
The noble Duke said: My Lords, the amendment is designed to ensure that the report is circulated to the various United Kingdom Parliaments and bodies. I notice that along with the Government's intention of wiping out Clause 43 through Amendment No. 140, to which this amendment was to be added, they have now tabled Amendment No. 145A, which gives an altogether more detailed treatment to the question of who should receive the official report, to which I would be inclined to lend my support. I beg to move.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, as the noble Duke will realise, we have no objections in principle to his amendment. We have tabled Amendment No. 145A, which we think gives the right level of detail, as the noble Duke indicated.
The Duke of Montrose: My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 140:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
14 Dec 2004 : Column 1250
Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendments Nos. 140A and 140B:
"ACCOMMODATION AND OTHER RESOURCES
(1) The Minister must ensure that the Supreme Court is provided with the following—
(a) such court-houses, offices and other accommodation as the Minister thinks are appropriate for the Court to carry on its business;
(b) such other resources as the Minister thinks are appropriate for the Court to carry on its business.
(2) The Minister may discharge the duty under subsection (1) by—
(a) providing accommodation or other resources, or
(b) entering into arrangements with any other person for the provision of accommodation or other resources.
(3) The powers to acquire land for the public service conferred by—
(a) section 2 of the Commissioners of Works Act 1852 (c. 28) (acquisition by agreement), and
(b) section 228(1) of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 (c. 8) (compulsory acquisition),
are to be treated as including power to acquire land for the purpose of its provision under arrangements under subsection (2)(b).
(4) The Scottish Ministers may make payments by way of contribution to the costs incurred by the Minister in providing the Court with resources in accordance with subsection (1)(b).
(5) In this section "court-house" means any place where the Court sits, including the precincts of any building in which it sits."
After Clause 43, insert the following new clause—
"SYSTEM TO SUPPORT COURT IN CARRYING ON BUSINESS
(1) The chief executive of the Supreme Court must ensure that the Court's resources are used to provide an efficient and effective system to support the Court in carrying on its business.
(2) In particular—
(a) appropriate services must be provided for the Court;
(b) the accommodation provided under section (Accommodation and other resources) must be appropriately equipped, maintained and managed."
On Question, amendments agreed to.
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