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Lord Ackner: My Lords, before the noble and learned Lord sits down, may I from a sedentary position, which is entirely due to disability and not disrespect, ask him to assist me on one point? There has been more than a hint made that if either of the amendments were approved, the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor could well discontinue the Bill altogether, thereby bringing to an end those parts that have considerable support such as the position of the Lord Chancellor and the matters that have been successfully achieved by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chief Justice and by the appointments board, thereby causing a great loss of considerable good in the architecture of this legislation. As a Cross- Bencher I have been cautioned to think very carefully how I should vote. Will the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor enlighten us about the threat that has been referred to, certainly obliquely, by the Lord Chief Justice and, I believe, by others?

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I make no threats. With respect I want a Bill that has the four parts of the reform we are after: the reform of the office of Lord Chancellor; the concordat—the new relationship with the judges; the Judicial Appointments Commission; and a Supreme Court. A Bill with all those four elements would not then require a further Bill. However, if any element goes, obviously we fail to deliver all four parts of the reform. I make it clear that I make no threats; I invite noble Lords to deal with this issue on its merits.

Finally, I wish to deal with what the right reverend Prelate said. He was concerned about how the connection with the law would be retained. I wish to deal with three points in that regard. First, I refer to the written representations amendment that was moved by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chief Justice. Secondly, we would seek to establish a committee in accordance with what was said when replying to the amendments tabled at Report by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern. I cannot say what form it would take but we would be keen to establish dialogue in that regard. Thirdly, I moved an amendment at Report which indicated that there was no bar on members of the supplementary panel—which means in effect retired Supreme Court justices—becoming Members of this House. As was said by someone in the course of the debate—I believe that it was the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart—the contribution that is made by lawyers tends to be made by the retired Law Lords rather than by the sitting ones. Therefore, I think that in practice the evolution that the right reverend Prelate sought exists.

I invite noble Lords to accept the principle of the Supreme Court. I invite noble Lords not to accept the principle and then in every single respect make it the same as it is already by accepting the amendments of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe.

Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor has invited the House to deal with this issue on the merits, which is exactly what I asked the House to do, without the
 
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thought of any threat in the background that if we do and the Government lose, the Bill will be withdrawn. On the merits, I wish to add only the sentence in document no. 93—which I think the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor must have forgotten—in which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Bingham, and all the Law Lords, said:

Having said that, I need only remind your Lordships of the most eloquent speeches of the noble and learned Lords, Lord Nicholls and Lord Slynn, who said all that I would have wanted to say. I wish to take the opinion of the House.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 14) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 133; Not-Contents, 199.


Division No. 1


CONTENTS

Ackner, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Armstrong of Ilminster, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bell, L.
Biffen, L.
Blatch, B.
Bowness, L.
Bridge of Harwich, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brightman, L.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chadlington, L.
Chilver, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Cox, B.
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Flather, B.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Glentoran, L.
Greenway, L.
Hanham, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Home, E.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Kalms, L.
Kilclooney, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Liverpool, E.
Lloyd of Berwick, L. [Teller]
Lucas, L.
Lyell, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mancroft, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Neill of Bladen, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northesk, E.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patten, L.
Peel, E.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Quirk, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Renton, L.
Rogan, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Sainsbury of Preston Candover, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Slynn of Hadley, L.
Steinberg, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Trenchard, V.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walpole, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Windlesham, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Amos, B. (Lord President of the Council)
Ampthill, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhatia, L.
Bhattacharyya, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Blood, B.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Bradshaw, L.
Brennan, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Cameron of Dillington, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Chelmsford, Bp.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cobbold, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Drayson, L.
D'Souza, B.
Dubs, L.
Dykes, L.
Eatwell, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Gale, B.
Garden, L.
Gavron, L.
Giddens, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greaves, L.
Greengross, B.
Grenfell, L.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hamwee, B.
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Haworth, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollick, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Judd, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Leitch, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Maxton, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Mishcon, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L.
Northover, B.
Parekh, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Paul, L.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Portsmouth, Bp.
Powell of Bayswater, L.
Prashar, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Rooker, L.
Roper, L.
Rosser, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Salisbury, Bp.
Sandberg, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sheldon, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Snape, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Tanlaw, L.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Vallance of Tummel, L.
Varley, L.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Worcester, Bp.
Young of Norwood Green, L.


Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.


 
20 Dec 2004 : Column 1571
 

Clause 15 [The Supreme Court]:


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