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Lord Monson: My Lords, I must first declare an interest as a light smoker, a libertarian and a supporter of FOREST, although I have not consulted that organisation in any way on this debate. Like the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, I deplore the way this whole business is being rushed through in a panic, potentially depriving smokers of their very longstanding rights and doing so without full consultation—there has been some consultation, but not nearly enough—and with a proposed date of implementation only three weeks away. What on earth is the rush?

The report contains some curious assertions. Why is it,

That is taken from paragraph 9. Either environmental tobacco smoke is like mustard gas, or whatever it was that Saddam Hussein dropped on the Kurds—in
 
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which case tobacco should be outlawed immediately and treated like heroin or crack cocaine—or it is not. Of course it is not, and so it becomes a matter of personal taste. I would never dismiss personal taste as a matter to be taken into consideration, but the presence or absence of food is irrelevant from the health point of view.

Paragraph 12 asserts that,

To the extent that some members of staff find tobacco smoke irritating, their wishes should be accommodated, but by no means all the members of our staff do so—as some of them have told me. The health of employees is prayed in aid, yet a 39-page summary of 64 epidemiological studies from all over the world—Europe, North America and Asia—investigating possible links between environmental tobacco smoke and either lung cancer or heart disease shows that the evidence is inconclusive, although admittedly the summary does not investigate the possible links between smoking and bronchitis.

The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, is right to quote Professor Sir Richard Doll on the subject. The professor was of course the first person to establish a link between active smoking and cancer, but he has a very different take on passive smoking. If environmental tobacco smoke were as lethal as the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, claims, I would not be here today and neither would most of your Lordships. Anyone born and brought up in the 1930s, 1940s or 1950s will inevitably have spent their formative years totally enveloped in other people's smoke. There was always at least one adult who smoked in most households, quite often two. People smoked in offices, factories, hospitals, on all forms of public transport, in cinemas, university lecture halls and so on.

And yet we have a pensions crisis today, one reason for which is that those born in the 1920s, 1930s and 1940s are living very much longer than government and other actuaries had forecast, throwing the calculations of annuity providers totally into disarray. In fact, we are said to be the healthiest generations ever—much healthier than those born since who have, perhaps, been brought up on too much junk food and too little exercise.

So let us not confuse annoyance—and I do not deny that heavy concentrations of tobacco smoke are annoying—with an alleged, but unproven, serious threat to human life. My amendments are designed to minimise this annoyance by permitting smoking only in the larger room of the Bishops' Bar after virtually everyone has finished their lunch or dinner; and in the dining room after virtually everyone has finished their tea. As regards the dining room, it simply replicates the current arrangements; as regards the main room of the Bishops' Bar, with its agreeable, convivial and very British ambience—which some are trying to turn into a neurotic Californian ambience—my amendment is much more restrictive compared with the status quo. I much prefer the status quo but one must be realistic and seek a compromise.
 
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The objective is to strike a fair balance between not two but three groups—smokers; those who do not smoke but who enjoy the company of smokers and do not mind their smoke, which I believe is a very large group; and those who hate smoke in any concentration. My amendments achieve that balance.

Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords—

Noble Lords: No!

Lord Campbell of Alloway: I am sorry.

Baroness Howarth of Breckland: My Lords, I rise to speak to the amendment standing in my name on the Order Paper.

We have heard some of the evidence from my noble friend Lady Finlay of Llandaff. I was not going to go through the evidence again but, as it has been questioned, I need to reiterate some of the numbers and what is the reality for people on the ground. The evidence is incontrovertible. If my noble friends have not visited the original evidence themselves, I would refer them to it because it is fairly stunning.

Professor Konrad Jamrozik of Imperial College London has estimated that exposure to second-hand smoke in the workplace causes around 700 premature deaths in the UK each year. This can be compared with the total number of deaths in the UK from all industrial accidents reported by the Health and Safety Executive. The degree of risk depends on the extent and duration of exposure, and therefore bar staff have the increased exposure which my noble friend has already explained.

I wish to refer simply to the Peers' Guest Room. The reason for doing so I shall come to later. In the White Paper, Choosing Health, the Government set out proposals to ban smoking in most workplaces and in public places. If we accept the evidence—which, as I have said, I think is incontrovertible—we have a responsibility to choose health for our staff and for ourselves and to set an example. It therefore follows that commonsense and care for staff means that this House will accept the recommendation of the Chairman of Committees and, if we do so, the same arguments will apply to the Peers' Guest Room.

At present, the staff there are expected to serve drinks in what is often a smoke-laden atmosphere, with all the risks that such exposure brings. I have personally not noticed the reduction in smoke when I go in there despite, as I understand it, the information we have had about filters. We know how helpful and accommodating our staff are—they are unlikely to make this case for themselves—but the risks of heart disease, a stroke or cancer are all there.

I am president of John Grooms, an organisation for disabled people, and I visit our brain-damage unit at Stowmarket. I have seen the results of a stroke. I have seen shattered families, where a stroke has changed their whole lives; where a parent has been taken out of
 
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a family and the rest of the family struggle. Often the victims have been heavy smokers who have reaped the results of their smoking.

I also speak from a personal interest and for many Peers who have spoken to me. We, too, would like to choose health. The Peers' Guest Room is the one reasonable place where one can entertain a guest before lunch or dinner. For me and for many of your Lordships these guests might be family and friends, but they are often contacts to further some aspect of the House or broader interests such as, for me, the All-Party Group on Children. This makes the Peers' Guest Room my workplace too and it can be unpleasant and embarrassing to take guests who deal with medical issues, child development and environmental matters into a smoke-filled bar. Noble Lords have spoken to me about this.

In conclusion, perhaps I may deal with the question of rights. Some of your Lordships may wish to smoke: I have every wish to prevent you from doing so. I watched both my parents die from extremely appalling smoke-related diseases. I have grown very fond of some of your Lordships—especially the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington. I recognise freewill and I understand, because I lived in a smoke-filled atmosphere in my childhood, that you may wish to choose ill health, but that should not infringe the rights of others and impair their health. For that reason, I wish to add simply the Peers' Guest Room to the list of exclusions. At the moment it is a place where staff, non-smoking Peers and their guests are exposed to risks which are totally unacceptable. I wish to choose health, and I ask your Lordships to join me in that choice.

Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, I apologise to your Lordships and the noble Baroness. It was not my intention originally to speak and I did not know that there was a speakers' list. I shall be very brief. I have an interest to declare, of course, and all your Lordships know it. It does not have to be registered as yet.

If we look at the composition of the Committee we will see that it is a pale reflection of the usual channels. You may well ask yourselves what is the object of remitting anything to the usual channels because they will come back with the same report, but I think it is worth a try.

On this issue, rhetoric is no substitute for reason. I support the concept of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, that we should remit the issue for reconsideration in the light of this debate. We should reconsider the position of the Bishops' Bar because, as has been said, arrangements could be made to ensure that there is no smoking where food is served. That proposal has not been considered in a fair way.

Secondly, as to the guest room, it is a funny kind of workplace. It is a room constructed with a high-vaulted ceiling. I have never noticed a noxious concentration of smoke that has ever inconvenienced anyone. In the circumstances, I am certain that it would never be such. We need some independent
 
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evidence to accommodate the staff, who, I agree, should not be subjected to passive smoking. The problem is that this report, which purports to be even-handed, is not even-handed. It is not proportionate. No thought whatever is given to provision for those who smoke. The Truro Room, which I call the smokers' punishment room, is impossible with its present form of ventilation. It is perfectly possible that segregated areas can be arranged.

Finally I say this, and only this. We are masters of our procedures. I am informed that the idea is that these recommendations will be reflected in Standing Orders. They should take some—I am not saying much, but some—fair and proportionate account of those who smoke. At the moment, they effectively take none. There should be no abuse in our Standing Orders of a minority interest, which is what we are. There should be a reasonable, practical, fair provision, strictly related to enclosed places, and excluding, of course, the Terrace.


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