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Lord Peston: My Lords, I shall try to be brief. I love your Lordships' House and I have enjoyed every minute of the 18 years that I have been here, one reason for that being that there is no view so barmy that no Peer will espouse or express it. Those who have spoken, in particular the noble Lord, Lord Harris of High Cross, but also the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, have reached a standard that I have not seen in the past 18 years.
In particular, I am interested to note that Peers with no qualifications whatever have the neck to say that the massive amount of research that has gone into the subject, including passive smoking, has no cogency at all. We have in our presence two people who really do know their stuff—namely, the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay and Lady Howarth. But they have shown real restraint. They have not spoken at length to set out
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all the research results. I can only say, as someone who has read the research results but does not regard himself as an expert, that I know of no researcher in this field who doubts the evidence on smoking in general and passive smoking in particular. We cannot take a decision today on the basis of amateur and ignorant interventions.
Equally preposterous is the view expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, about whom we should consult. He suggests that we should consult the body called FOREST. That is a body that exists solely as a group of apologists for the manufacturers and sellers of the most lethal product available on public sale in this country. That is what that group's moral and ethical position is; the notion that we would consult them seems to me to be as ridiculous as anything that I have heard.
I certainly object to all the amendments put forward here, apart from the only two sensible amendments—those of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, which corresponds to the best thinking of the day, and of the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, who has tabled a compromise amendment on the basis of what we are likely to debate today.
Those are my main and, as always, well-balanced remarks. I wish to add one other matter, which concerns me most of all. On the subject of rights in this place, it is taken for granted by the pro-smokers that there is a symmetry between the position of the smokers and the position of the remainder. The point is that there is no such symmetry—the two things are completely different. The smokers smoke for themselves and do not care about others; the others are the people who are damaged. So the notion that we must somehow strike a balance and that we are attacking fundamental rights makes no philosophical sense at all. When we divide, as I hope that we do, I hope that noble Lords do not fall into the irrational trap of assuming that, in the way typical of your Lordships' House, we must have a balanced compromise.
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, the noble Lord has made a fascinating speech, but he has not mentioned the legality of smoking—nothing to do with forcing or sentimentality, but the fact that it is a legal occupation.
Lord Peston: My Lords, I say two things to the noble Baroness. It is legal to buy cigarettes, of course. I am sure that she has the same very high moral standards that I have. There are a great many things that are legal that I do not do, on the grounds that they are unethical and immoral. I do not agree with the notion that it is legal and that therefore it is okay. None of us speaking on this side of the debate have remotely suggested that smokers should be stopped from buying cigarettes or smoking them in the privacy of their own dwellings.
What we want is for them not to smoke when we are around, particularly when we have guests or when we are eating. We are seeking to achieve that in your Lordships' House. I accept the other fundamental point of view, again related to my love of this place, that we ought to be in the lead on this matter, not be
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dragged kicking and screaming because a tiny minority of people, whose credentials, as I have said, I doubt, do not want us to move forward.
Baroness Neuberger: My Lords, I am delighted to follow the noble Lord, Lord Peston, in this debate, as I agree with absolutely everything that he has said. I shall speak briefly to support the amendment put so ably by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, and also to support, although it does not go far enough for my taste, the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth.
We have heard a huge number of people in this House challenging the validity of incontrovertible hard scientific evidence, which has been given by the Chief Medical Officer and other distinguished scientists. I do not really think that that is appropriate in this House.
I am a very new Member of your Lordships' House and cannot claim the 18 years of seniority that the noble Lord, Lord Peston, has claimed. But as many noble Lords will know, when a new Member first arrives, she does not have a desk. When I first arrived, it was suggested to me that I go and work in the Writing Room, but that is somewhere where people smoke. I am a former smoker. I am not really a reformed character because, 33 years on I still miss the odd cigarette, particularly late in the evening. But I do not wish to be exposed to other people's cigarette smoke and I do not believe that those of us in this House who feel that way and know of the health dangers should want to be exposed to other people's cigarette, pipe and cigar smoke.
But that is only one reason for believing that it is important to ban smoking. The main reason we should do so is for the staff, who asked the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, to introduce her amendment and who cannot make their case properly in this Chamber themselves. It seems to me that it is important that we support the desire of the staff to work in a safe and healthy environment. As regards testing the issue of smokers' rights as against the rights of the rest of us, no one has absolute rights in that regard. It seems to me that the rights of the rest of us, and particularly the rights of the staff in this House, should win out. Therefore, I support the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff.
Lord Ackner: My Lords, I am delighted to add to the degree of harmony that has apparently descended upon the House. I, too, happily support the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth of Breckland, and I do so on the very short and simple question: do we accept that passive smoking injures health? We have a number of sources to show that that should be looked upon now as common ground. The BMA says that 1,000 people a year die from passive smoking. The Chief Medical Officer recommended a ban on smoking in enclosed public places three years ago. However, nothing has happened as a result.
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Given that it is common ground that passive smoking injures to the extent of even causing death, there should be no issue on this question at all. Those who insist on smoking have the liberty to do it at home; they have liberty to do it outside; they have liberty to do it in the corridors here. That should be more than sufficient. You should not run the risk of injuring other people's health purely to smoke for your own enjoyment, which can be carried out elsewhere. Accordingly I seek to add to the harmony that has suddenly descended on the House.
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, we have reached the stage where most things that can be said on this subject have been said. Therefore, if no one objects, I shall attempt to sum up the debate as briefly as possible before the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, decides what to do with his amendment.
I cannot possibly comment on individual speeches as I believe there were 16 of them, more or less evenly divided between the pros and the antis. Most of them were delivered in an amusing and good humoured way. I must admit that one completely lost me but I shall not go into that.
A number of noble Lords suggested that the matter was being rushed and that the House should have more time to deal with it. It has not been rushed. It has been considered by two domestic committees: the Administration and Works Committee and the Refreshment Committee. As I said in my opening remarks, the issue was revisited following serious representations from staff and their unions. The difference between now and 1999, when this issue was last considered, is that in the view of many people now the evidence regarding passive smoking is overwhelming. Therefore, we must consider it now from that point of view. The fact is that if we were to do nothing, there is a very good chance that the House would be taken to court by some members of the staff.
Someone asked why smoking is not banned throughout the Palace if the concerns of the staff are paramount. At the moment staff volunteer to work in those areas where smoking is permitted. It is becoming increasingly difficult to find staff to volunteer to do so, but under the proposals put forward in the report the number of areas where smoking is permitted will be greatly reduced. It is expected that it will be possible to staff the remaining areas with volunteers.
The noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, asked why the Writing Room was included in the report. Staff have to go into the Writing Room, and that is why it is included. As I said in my opening remarks, and is made very clear in the report at paragraph 10:
"The Committee acknowledges that any significant changes in smoking policy should be a matter for the whole House. Accordingly, the Committee has made a number of recommendations, and has done so in such a way as to facilitate the tabling of amendments".
As is evident, no amendment was tabled on the subject of the Writing Room, although that could have been done.
As regards the Bishops' Bar, a number of noble Lords said that it should be divided properly into two and not be left as it is now, which is effectively one room where food is served in both halves. The possible division of that room would be a matter for the Refreshment Committee. It could occur but that would mean that there would be a smoking only section where no food was served. At the moment noble Lords seem to enjoy having food served in both halves of the room.
Other than to reaffirm why I recommend that the House accepts the report as it stands, there is little more for me to say. I suggest that we get on with the business.
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