Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, first, I should like to thank all those noble Lords who have taken part in what has been, until the last minutes, a well informed and, indeed, well ordered and decent debate. Even those noble Lords who oppose my amendment, except one, have been kind and have conducted the debate in the normal way in which we conduct debates in this House.
I say only that, so far as my amendment is concerned, it seeks to refer the matter back so that we can have further discussions about meeting the needs of smokers and non-smokers alike. That takes into account in particular the interests of our staff who, as has been observed, serve us very well, and whose health and welfare we wish to preserve.
The risk factor of passive smoking at 700 possible deaths per year is very low compared even with the building industryjust one other industry outside. Accidents at work are a very serious matter, and much more serious than anything to do with passive smoking.
I shall refer only to the noble Lord, Lord Peston. The noble Lord insulted your Lordships' House.
Noble Lords: Oh!
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: Oh, yes, indeed he did. He suggested that noble Lords are a crowd of crazies and that nothing in his wildest dreams could be said except in this place. Therefore, he insulted your Lordships' House.
Lord Peston: My Lords, I must object. There are standards to be met, as the noble Lord knows because he has been here longer than I have. In no way have I today or at any other time insulted your Lordships' House. In fact, as he well knows, no one stands up more for your Lordships' House on this and other matters than I do. Therefore I must ask him to withdraw what is undoubtedly an unconscionable remark.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, I most certainly will not withdraw it. The noble Lord suggested that in
21 Dec 2004 : Column 1690
this House, in this place, you would hear all sorts of crazy things that you would not hear elsewhere. I have no intention of withdrawing my accusation that he insulted Members of this House and the House itself. What is more, he insulted the noble Lord, Lord Harris of High Cross, who has been around this issue and studied it over a long period of time. The noble Lord also insulted me by suggesting that I had not studied and taken note of the issue of passive smoking, which I have done over a long time.
I hope that noble Lords will support my amendment. As I said, I believe that this debate has shown that the matter needs to be reconsidered. I commend the amendment to the House.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 1) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 41; Not-Contents, 116.
Division No. 1
CONTENTS
Blatch, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Boothroyd, B.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Cobbold, L.
Colwyn, L.
D'Souza, B.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Erroll, E.
Fitt, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Geddes, L.
Greenway, L.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of High Cross, L. [Teller]
Liverpool, E.
Lucas, L.
Mancroft, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monson, L. [Teller]
Morris of Manchester, L.
Naseby, L.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Quirk, L.
Renton, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sharples, B.
Skelmersdale, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Trenchard, V.
Trumpington, B.
Walpole, L.
Weatherill, L.
NOT-CONTENTS
Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President)
Andrews, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Chan, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Condon, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Craigavon, V.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dubs, L.
Dykes, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L. [Teller]
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Gale, B.
Garden, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greaves, L.
Grocott, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B. [Teller]
Harrison, L.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Judd, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Laird, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lewis of Newnham, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Maxton, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Montrose, D.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Neuberger, B.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Parekh, L.
Pendry, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rooker, L.
Roper, L.
Rosser, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Simon, V.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tomlinson, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Truscott, L.
Turnberg, L.
Uddin, B.
Warnock, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Hornsey, B.
Young of Norwood Green, L.
Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
21 Dec 2004 : Column 1691
The Deputy Speaker (Viscount Ullswater): My Lords, I should inform the House that if Amendment No. 2 is agreed, whether amended by Amendment No. 2A or not, I cannot call Amendments Nos. 3 to 8.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: My Lords, in the light of noble Lords' having supported this important report, and to give a Christmas present to those who smoke, I have decided not to move my amendment.
[Amendment No. 2 not moved.]
[Amendment No. 2A, as an amendment to Amendment No. 2, not moved.]
Lord Palmer: My Lords, I love getting early Christmas presents. In the light of what my noble friend said, I also wish not to move Amendment No. 3.
[Amendment No. 3 not moved.]
[Amendments Nos. 4 to 6 not moved.]
Baroness Howarth of Breckland rose to move, as an amendment to the Motion standing in the name of the Chairman of Committees, at end to insert "but with the omission of paragraph 14(b), and with the insertion after paragraph 13(j) of the following new paragraph
"13(k)the Peers' Guest Room.""
21 Dec 2004 : Column 1692
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I beg to move.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 7) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 88; Not-Contents, 53.
Division No. 2
CONTENTS
Addington, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President)
Andrews, B.
Avebury, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Chan, L.
Christopher, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Condon, L.
Craigavon, V.
D'Souza, B.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dholakia, L.
Dubs, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Faulkner of Worcester, L. [Teller]
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Gale, B.
Garden, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greaves, L.
Grocott, L.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B. [Teller]
Howe, E.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Judd, L.
Laird, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Maxton, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Neuberger, B.
Northover, B.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rea, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Simon, V.
Strabolgi, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tomlinson, L.
Truscott, L.
Turnberg, L.
Uddin, B.
Walpole, L.
Whitaker, B.
Wilkins, B.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Hornsey, B.
Young of Norwood Green, L.
NOT-CONTENTS
Astor of Hever, L.
Bach, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Boothroyd, B.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Erroll, E.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Fitt, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Geddes, L.
Greenway, L.
Harris of High Cross, L.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Kingsland, L.
Liverpool, E.
Lucas, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Mancroft, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Naseby, L.
Norton of Louth, L.
Palmer, L. [Teller]
Parekh, L.
Pendry, L.
Quirk, L.
Razzall, L.
Renton, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Seccombe, B.
Skelmersdale, L. [Teller]
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Trenchard, V.
Trumpington, B.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.
21 Dec 2004 : Column 1693
Lord Palmer: My Lords, since tabling my Amendment No. 8, I understand that smoking on the Terrace and the Cholmondeley Roomand, indeed the Attlee Roomis always at the discretion of the host Peer giving the reception. In light of the fact that my noble friend did not move her amendment, I shall not move my amendment, on the understanding that I have correctly interpreted what happens.
[Amendment No. 8 not moved.]
On Question, Motion, as amended, agreed to.