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Lord Filkin: My Lords, I am delighted to find that I can agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, on this—as I shall do, no doubt, on other issues today as we progress on to other matters. Increasingly, as the years go by, I share her view that one understands more and more the contributions that older people can make to many aspects of our society. On the specific point raised by the noble Baroness, the off-the-cuff answer is that I expect so, but I would like to go away and check that.

Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, given that a key goal of the strategy paper is to maximise the contribution made by university research to overseas trade and inward investment, is the Minister concerned about the impact that the growing number of universities closing their engineering and particularly their science departments may have on that objective?

Lord Filkin: My Lords, that is a rather adroit way of just about bringing a different point within the scope of the Question. As the noble Lord knows, because of the concerns of my right honourable friend the previous Secretary of State for Education, Charles Clarke, about decisions made by some universities in relation to certain subjects, he instructed HEFCE to look at the issue. In the national interest, one could not
 
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allow a situation to develop in which a range of crucially important subjects were eroded. Of course, we await its considerations.

Baroness Whitaker: My Lords, declaring an interest as a vice president of the One World Trust and bearing in mind that we live in one moral universe, as my right honourable friend the Chancellor put it, will my noble friend urge that the role and potential of the United Nations is included in school syllabuses?

Lord Filkin: My Lords, an understanding of how the United Nations and other international governance bodies affect not only our lives in our own society, but also the lives of people in other parts of the world is part of good curriculum studies.

We saw a particularly good example of that recently with the launch by the DfID and Morgan Stanley of a project for schools around the G8 Summit, which allowed schools to look at issues like global warning, its importance, causes and impact on all societies and at the interesting and important issue of how some of the richest societies and economies do, often with difficulty, work together on challenging issues like how to address global warning.

One could hardly find a better practical example, about both governance and a real issue, for schools to study in their curriculum. Therefore, that is a clear illustration of the importance of bringing international issues to hone in school teaching by such a method.

Emergency Warning System

Lord Garden asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether adequate emergency communication arrangements exist in the United Kingdom to give warning to those at potential risk from tsunami-type disasters.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Whitty): My Lords, the UK has a well established flood warning system and central and local arrangements for dealing with extreme events. They were recently tested in Exercise Triton, carried out by the Environment Agency in September 2004, and lessons are being learned from that. Nevertheless, in the light of events in the Indian Ocean, we are looking at the level of risk to the UK from such extreme events and have been in preliminary discussions with the Office of Science and Technology.

Lord Garden: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that honest Answer and appraisal of our shortage of communications for dealing with the sort of event that occurred in the Indian Ocean. As there was much criticism of the nations around the Indian Ocean for not having an appropriate communications system, I trust that the Minister will, with colleagues in the Civil Contingencies Secretariat, look at the wide range of
 
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opportunities now available to us to have a proper emergency communications system that will reach those at risk.

Lord Whitty: My Lords, communications are clearly vital. As noble Lords will know, there is a communications system in the Pacific Ocean, where there is greater experience of tsunamis, but such a system apparently does not exist in the Indian Ocean. In the Atlantic we are at less risk from tsunamis than from other potential events such as volcanoes, earthquakes and so forth, and communications systems exist for those. The point of our looking again at the situation is to see whether the communications systems will work and what contingency plans are in place should those need to be triggered.

Baroness Byford: My Lords, further to the Minister's answer to the last question, what emergency arrangements have been made to deal with flooding on the east coast where the land is much flatter? Perhaps I may ask the Minister another question which I hope is not too wide of the Question on the Order Paper. Will he comment on the proposed new 10-mile barrier that is intended to address London's flooding risks? I suspect that flooding in such very flat country—compared with flooding in the west, where it would meet Wales and the mountains—would have to be coped with much more quickly. Who, ultimately, has total control in the matter?

Lord Whitty: Regrettably, my Lords, no one has total control in natural disasters. However, a lot of work and very heavy investment have gone into flood defences for the eastern region in order to deal with such events and with other events that we feel are within the range of experience. Although a tsunami of this size is unlikely to occur in the North Sea, we nevertheless need to be prepared for substantially greater flood emergencies than have arisen hitherto. That is why the issue of constructing a further Thames Barrier has come into play. We will be looking at that. The Environment Agency, the Government and the local authorities concerned are very much engaged in looking at the optimum flood defences for the east coast.

Lord Clark of Windermere: My Lords, will the noble Lord join me in paying tribute to the emergency workers in the north of Cumbria, in Carlisle in particular, who worked so well and effectively and particularly those connected with Radio Cumbria who, broadcasting night and day, kept morale up and gave out information over the critical period of the weekend when there was so much devastation in the city of Carlisle?

Lord Whitty: My Lords, indeed I will. The efforts made in Carlisle—the way in which the emergency services and indeed the population of Carlisle and its surrounding areas have dealt with a problem of this size—have been exemplary. As such an event has never
 
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before occurred in the area's history, it would have been difficult to predict it entirely; but the way in which it has been coped with has, so far, been very effective.

Baroness Sharples: My Lords, the noble Lord says that no one is in sole charge. Why not?

Lord Whitty: My Lords, the Environment Agency is in charge of flood defences and contingency arrangements for flood emergencies while larger emergencies such as a tsunami would be dealt with on a civil contingency basis. The communications system, however, would have to involve a much wider range of people. The noble Baroness is perhaps misinterpreting my remark that not all of this is under human control. We have to recognise that we cannot predict and entirely cope with some things in this country any more than they could in the Indian Ocean.

Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, reference has been made to East Anglia with regard to the prospect of natural disaster. Are the Government content to think that a disaster such as that which occurred in 1953 in East Anglia would now be prevented?

Lord Whitty: My Lords, 300 people died in the East Anglia emergency in 1953. I am satisfied that that would not happen again, due to the flood defences and contingency arrangements that have been put in place. That is not to say that substantial flooding and damage could not occur on the east coast.

The Duke of Montrose: My Lords, following on the Minister's previous answer, one understands that emergency communications is a national issue. However, is there a body that will co-ordinate the various regional responses from the devolved administrations?

Lord Whitty: My Lords, the contingency arrangements would need to involve all the areas under threat. The particular contingency to which I referred related to the south and east coasts. Therefore, that would involve the Environment Agency and the English authorities. Different sorts of emergencies may well involve Wales and Scotland as well.

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