---

Lord Glentoran: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness the Lord President of the Council for repeating the Statement made in another place earlier today by the Secretary of State. I am also grateful to her and to the Secretary of State for allowing us early viewing of the Statement.

Today's Statement comes as a profound disappointment to all of us who want to see the restoration of devolution in Northern Ireland on a stable and inclusive basis, and I am sure as a massive disappointment to the majority of the population of Northern Ireland. At this stage, I should like to offer our commiseration with the victims of this crime who must have been seriously traumatised by their experiences; and with the lady who must have very nearly died of hypothermia that night. This crime will have serious implications for the future of the political process.

On Friday the chief constable was unequivocal in apportioning blame for the robbery at the Northern Bank last month to the Provisional IRA. He quite rightly described it as a brutal and violent crime, totally at odds with a commitment to "exclusively democratic and peaceful means" and paragraph 13 of the Joint Declaration issued in 2003.

The Provisional IRA is, of course, one part of the republican movement—"inextricably linked" with Sinn Fein, as the Independent Monitoring Commission said in its report last April. Some senior members, of Sin Fein are also senior members of PIRA. Sinn Fein, particularly through their senior members, are in a position to exercise considerable influence on PIRA's major policy decisions.

Therefore, is it not clear, as the Taoiseach himself said at the weekend, that senior members of Sinn Fein would have known about this robbery at precisely the same time that they were negotiating a process which, if successful, would have seen them have four ministerial posts in the Government of Northern Ireland?

Does the Secretary of State agree that this renders Sinn Fein completely unfit to hold ministerial office for the foreseeable future unless and until they have turned their backs on all paramilitary and criminal activity for good?

Is it not entirely reasonable and justifiable in the light of the chief constable's statement that other political parties should refuse to entertain any thoughts of sharing power with Sinn Fein while that party remains linked in any way to organised crime, gangsters and terrorists?
 
11 Jan 2005 : Column 200
 

There is no way that we in my party could support any legislation designed to devolve powers over policing and criminal justice to Northern Ireland until we are certain that all the ministers concerned in a devolved executive are committed to supporting the PSNI and the rule of law.

I have a number of further questions for the noble Baroness and the Secretary of State. In the light of the intelligence now in the possession of the chief constable, is there not a case for looking again at the cases of individual criminals released early on licence under the Belfast agreement?

In view of the suspicion that the profits of crime are helping to fund political parties with paramilitary links, will the Secretary of State reconsider the Government's decision to continue the exemptions that political parties in Northern Ireland have from the normal rules on publishing their accounts and receiving foreign donations? If nothing has changed for the better when the relevant statutory instrument comes before your Lordships' House, I shall be arguing against it.

Will the Secretary of State, the noble Baroness and her colleagues table a Motion in the House of Commons to suspend the privileges and parliamentary allowances that were exceptionally given to Sinn Fein's four MPs, even though they refused to take their seats? It is just wrong, I suggest, for taxpayers' money to be doled out in this way to a party that remains "inextricably linked" to organised crime.

Finally, just before the Leeds Castle talks in September, the Prime Minister said that if there was no deal:

"I think we've got to look for another way forward".

There is no deal. It is time to look for another way forward. Either we seek to restore devolution without Sinn Fein until that party comes up to the democratic standards expected of everyone else, or, as both the Irish News and the Belfast Telegraph have suggested in the past couple of days, we should continue with a more accountable form of direct rule. I emphasise the words "accountable form". I know it is difficult for Ministers in the Northern Ireland Office, but there are some very serious issues before the representatives of the Northern Ireland people. They need the democratic process that will enable them to have their say and to hold Ministers accountable.

In the words of yesterday's Belfast News Letter, it is time for the political process to move on and for a society that is peaceful and prosperous to be created. The people of Northern Ireland deserve nothing less.

Lord Smith of Clifton: My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness the Lord President of the Council for repeating the Statement made in another place. I should like to express the sympathy of noble Lords on these Benches for those victims who were abducted in the course of this robbery.

That said, I have to ask: what was the purpose of the chief constable's statement? We accept what he said; Mr Orde is a chief constable of the highest quality and
 
11 Jan 2005 : Column 201
 
integrity, but the fact is that this statement is almost without precedent. It would have been more reassuring to have had a statement that a number of arrests had been made. Can any be expected, or is the chief constable's statement to be a substitute for such arrests? There is a real problem in that there has been too much concentration, in terms of the ceasefires, on regulating and diminishing paramilitary activity, as opposed to criminality. We have seen the results of that differential policy in the Northern Bank robbery.

If the purpose of the chief constable's statement is unclear, the consequences, as the Statement says and the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, has confirmed, are stark and obvious. I predicted more than a year ago that if devolution was not restored fully by last November, a year after the elections to Stormont, it would be put off for a generation. I suspect that the events of the past few days will lead to that conclusion. None of us would like it, but I think it is becoming almost inevitable.

The restoration of devolution will not be practical if Sinn Fein is excluded. The idea that there can be devolution involving the other parties but not Sinn Fein is politically not on.

We have to pick up the pieces from the fallout. There are two immediate reactions. First, I was pleased to note that the pay and allowances for members of the Legislative Assembly are to be looked at seriously. I have asked for this to happen for more than a year. I believe—and I ask the Leader of the House to consider this—that we should give notice that these will be stopped three months hence. There is no point in continuing to pay half a million pounds a month of taxpayers' money to keep a show going that is not on the road.

Further disapplication for Northern Ireland parties from the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 would be a serious mistake. I wrote to the Leader of the House about this yesterday, and the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, has also raised it. Such a move would make money laundering into the coffers of a party that much more easy if there is no proper set of accounts listing donations. As I have said privately to the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, we, too, would find it extremely difficult to support such an order.

Secondly, again I echo the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, in asking how government by direct rule is to be held publicly accountable with adequate scrutiny. It is quite clear that the existing Westminster structures cannot do justice to the amount of Northern Ireland legislation we are having to consider. One has only to recall our recent attempts in this House to look at the budget. We had only a couple of hours. As my noble friend Lord Shutt pointed out, he, as a local councillor, would normally have spent eight weeks considering the budget for Calderdale local authority. What are we going to do to revamp our provisions for looking at Northern Ireland legislation?

Can some provision be made for pre-legislative scrutiny by local Northern Ireland politicians? I suggested some time ago that perhaps the Assembly Members could be used as a committee for pre-legislative scrutiny, which would greatly help us in
 
11 Jan 2005 : Column 202
 
Westminster. While the Assembly may well have to be stood down, I wonder whether it is beyond humankind's contrivance to create a consultative body which could help us here.

As others have said, this is a very sad time for Northern Ireland, coming at the end of a process where hopes had been raised to expect a return to devolution. That has not happened, it is not going to happen, and we must now look at the consequences.

---