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Baroness Amos: My Lords, perhaps I may tell the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, that the Government have made it absolutely clear that not only do we want to see an end to all violence, but we want to see an end to all criminality. In seeking that we want to see the actions taken on the ground which will deliver that. With respect to the noble Viscount's statement on intelligence and policing, I reject his claims about a reduction in intelligence gathering. I understand that the senior investigating officer in this case has access to all the intelligence, irrespective of where it comes from. Of course I have full confidence in the investigation team.

Viscount Brookeborough: My Lords, I was referring to prior to the incident, not the amount of intelligence received after £26 million had gone. I was talking about the six months in the year prior to it.

Baroness Amos: My Lords, I am aware of that, but one of the reasons why the Serious Organised Crime Agency was created in relation to Northern Ireland
 
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was precisely to bring together the intelligence and policing aspects, so that they were able to share information.

Lord Mayhew of Twysden: My Lords, did not the Government recently justify their decision permanently to reduce the overall infantry strength of the British Army on the grounds that the Police Service for Northern Ireland needed now, and would need, less support from the Army in providing security for Northern Ireland? Was that decision not founded upon the Government having been persuaded that Mr Adams, Mr McGuinness and Sinn Fein were trustworthy? Where does that leave that decision now and should it not be urgently revisited?

Baroness Amos: My Lords, that decision was made on the basis of the length of time that we have seen ceasefires in operation in Northern Ireland and the implications of that for our military and for policing in Northern Ireland.

Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: My Lords, I believe that the political repercussions of this matter will reverberate for a long time, but I do not wish to ask a question about that. I am grateful to the Lord President for repeating the Statement in this House, but I must ask her whether she believes that there has been adequate transparency in terms of what really happened.

We know that Northern Bank notes are distinctive. We know that many of them can be traced. But are we not being led to believe that the whole £26 million is traceable? We have not been told what notes from other banks, including used notes and notes from the Bank of England, form part of that £26 million and whether it will be easy for the criminals to disperse that money. So we need some information on that if we are fully to understand how these criminals, even at this late stage, can be thwarted in benefiting from the money that they have stolen.

It has been suggested—indeed, a member of my own party suggested to the Secretary of State—that the numbers that are available on banknotes that are traceable should be circulated to every household and business in Northern Ireland. The citizenry of Northern Ireland—and that is the only place that Northern Bank notes are likely to be circulated—should be recruited to a man and to a woman over the next 20 weeks, which will be critical, given that that is the time it will take for the Northern Bank to print new notes and withdraw the old notes. Can the Minister assure us tonight that the numbers on traceable notes will be circulated to every household and business in Northern Ireland? That would help.

I also wish to ask the Minister about policing. I share many of the doubts that have been expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton, about the chief constable. Although he ameliorated what he had to say, I shall not do so, because I believe that we have a police command which is preoccupied with statistics. As your Lordships know, statistics can be misleading. If there was any intelligence available—and there
 
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should have been, given the background intelligence in Northern Ireland over 30 years—that there would be a robbery of some sort, why, when there was a tip-off from a traffic warden that something suspicious was happening outside Northern Bank headquarters, were two "peelers" sent along on foot instead of a tactical support group dispatched to deal with the incident?

Those are questions that people like myself, who have served in the security forces over the years, wish to know, because we feel that there is an incompetence in policing that should not happen and that the responsibility rests with the chief constable.

Baroness Amos: My Lords, while I can appreciate the frustration of the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, I know that he will understand that I really cannot comment on the details of the investigation. However, I will tell the noble Lord that the chief constable did cover in some detail in his statement on Friday the amounts and the types of notes that were stolen. I also said in the Statement that we will be discussing with the bank how best to publicise the detailed arrangements once the bank has put in place its intention to withdraw from circulation its current banknotes. I appreciate the frustration, but I cannot say any more at this stage.

Baroness Park of Monmouth: My Lords, can the Leader of the House say whether the Special Branch has been severely reduced in the past two or three years, on the recommendation of the Patten commission? It has been said in the press—and I do not know the truth—that a number of the normal police sources have had to be discarded because they were considered to be potentially criminal. You do not get inside criminal groups without having someone with normal connections with them. I should very much like to know whether the police have in any way been given the reasonable prospect of penetrating the IRA at this level.

I greatly respect the work of the Serious Organised Crime Agency and I think that the Government are right to treat this as a straight criminal, rather than political, issue. But it is a political issue, too—all the more so because we have seen the Stormont break-in and the IRA activity in the Special Branch involving the removal of records. Nothing has been done about either of those incidents and we are always told that that is because there are legal procedures which cannot be hurried. We are talking about three years. I feel that something needs to be done to enable the police to do the job that they should be able to do.

Baroness Amos: My Lords, I hope that I can reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Park. A great deal of concern has been expressed about a reduction in numbers as a result of the merging of the two groups. I can say to the House that the chief constable has said consistently that the police have adequate resources in place to deal with any situation that may arise, and they are of course supported by the military as necessary. I said in response to an earlier question that the decisions on the military in Northern Ireland were made in relation to the decisions on the ceasefires.
 
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It remains absolutely vital that the police and other security forces can respond flexibly within the context of Northern Ireland. My understanding is that they feel able, and sufficiently resourced, to do that. If any concerns in that respect are brought to my attention, I shall of course write to the noble Baroness.

Lord Fitt: My Lords, can the noble Baroness tell us whether, in advance of the Statement made by the chief constable, discussions were held with the British Government, the Irish Government and, more particularly, with the American Administration? Has she any idea how the American Administration view this crime?

There is another serious element to this matter. When the robbery took place, two of the people who were so badly mishandled by the robbers were Catholics. A story has been going around Northern Ireland over the past few weeks that this was an inside job. People in Northern Ireland believe that, if it was an inside job, it certainly did not involve any Orangeman, Protestant or Paisley supporter. The suspicion is that it was a Catholic employed in the bank. That puts every Catholic who is in any position of trust in any bank in Northern Ireland in severe jeopardy. Did the IRA take that into consideration?

The noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton, desperately seeking a way to continue with the peace process, said that committees should be set up to inquire into the government of Northern Ireland. On those committees would sit two MPs—McGuinness and Adams—who are Members of this Parliament and also Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly. As they exclude themselves from sitting in the House of Commons, would they be excluded from the committees advocated by the noble Lord?

On the question of finance from abroad, I vividly remember speaking in this House against any exoneration when I was trying desperately to include the IRA in the legislation at that time.

I think that the noble Baroness may be able to answer the following question but I ask it directly of the Prime Minister. In the absence of arrests and of some of the money being found, will members of Sinn Fein be permitted to run daily into Downing Street? Are we going to be told that we are still in search of a political solution by way of devolution? From what I hear, the Taoiseach in Dublin would be totally unable to have further discussions with them if the present situation were to be maintained.

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