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Lord Roberts of Conwy: I support this important group of amendments. My name is attached to Amendments Nos. 79 and 83, which apply the same principle and requirement to the chief inspector in Wales, namely that he should have this function. There is no doubt about the importance of the behaviour of pupils and levels of discipline in schools, for the two reasons that have already been advanced; namely, the importance of these two elements for the learning process itself, as my noble friend Lady Perry said, because if there is discipline and good behaviour, that contributes naturally to an enjoyable learning process. Secondly, I support the amendments because those elements are all-important to parents. I am sure that, as the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, indicated, they are among the first requirements with which parents are concerned.

It is important that the inspectorate has broad investigative powers, particularly the function relating to behaviour and discipline, because the inspectorate alone has powers in the educational field. I was looking recently at the Public Services Ombudsman (Wales) Bill which will shortly enter Committee in this House. It was an enjoyable Christmas Recess experience, as I am sure your Lordships will appreciate. Powerful as that ombudsman will be in Wales, covering almost the entire span of public services, he is nevertheless debarred—at length, I might say—from examining much of the education field. Among the matters excluded from his investigative remit are:

"Action relating to—(a) the giving of instruction, or (b) conduct, curriculum, internal organisation, management or discipline, in a school or other educational establishment maintained by a local authority in Wales".

There is a further subsection which looks too complex to examine at this stage. But that gives the Committee an idea of the scope of exclusion. Therefore, if the Public Services Ombudsman in Wales cannot touch this sphere, surely it is all important that the inspectorate should be able to look into the issues of conduct—I draw particular attention to that—the curriculum, internal organisation, management and discipline. Two of the elements referred to in this
 
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amendment are actually and specifically excluded from the remit of the Public Services Ombudsman. I think that that is a very telling point in favour of ensuring that the inspectorate in Wales, as in England, has a responsibility in this area.

Baroness Sharp of Guildford: At this late hour, and given that the Minister is anxious to proceed more smartly in this debate than we have thus far, I do not want to say very much but I wish to make two points.

First, the inspectorate already looks at discipline within schools. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, being a governor of a school that has just gone through the inspection process, I can tell the Committee that the inspectorate does indeed report on behaviour and discipline within a school. Given that that is already covered and that we know that inspectors have that remit, I, along with the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, am uncertain. I feel that this is a very important issue; nevertheless, I am not convinced that we need to add this extra provision to the Bill.

Secondly, I want to reinforce the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Dearing. It is important to get the two equations right. You can achieve satisfactory educational standards only if, at the same time, you get the behavioural equation right. You cannot teach a class if it is misbehaving. With regard to the concept of the two simultaneous equations, when I was a parent-governor at a large girls' comprehensive school in London, I used to emphasise that we needed to ensure that we got the simultaneous equation right if we were to achieve the required standards. It seems to me that these are the two issues that one has to look at, and they must be seen as simultaneous equations: you need to get both right if you are to achieve.

The Earl of Listowel: I want to make two points. First, I listened with great interest to the noble Baroness, Lady Perry of Southwark, when she spoke about the key being to engage the interests of children. That tallies very much with my own limited experience several years ago working in a small primary school with two boys who were not engaging with their class. I was watching the class and worked with the two boys. I set them a task of having to write a certain amount against the clock. They had been wasting time but they got down to the job and enjoyed it. It was a competition and they were very focused. It seems to me that engaging children's interest is key.

It is to be hoped that part of the Bill's impact will be to free teachers more so that they can think about the needs of the children. It is hoped that they will have fewer worries about bureaucracy and inspections so that they can be more focused on what children need and in what children are interested.

Secondly, I want to mention, tentatively, the importance of communication between teachers and parents. Parents can provide a key for teachers in understanding why children are difficult in class and they may be able to give them ideas about how better to manage children's behaviour. Certainly it is very important to know about the background of children in care. More and more nowadays, teachers can call
 
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upon a teaching assistant to work individually with a child. Some children need individual attention as they cannot work well in groups. I think that that also needs to be borne in mind.

Lord Lucas: I, too, think it is extremely important that this is a matter on which the inspectors specifically report. As the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, said, it is an issue on which parents focus. That is absolutely right. It is one of the key points of interest for parents because it is such a good diagnostic of other things that are going on in the school. It is a diagnostic of how good the SEN provision is. If it is falling apart, there will be bad behaviour. It is diagnostic of how good the pastoral care is. As my noble friend Lady Perry of Southwark said, it is a diagnostic of how good the teaching is. Above all, it is a diagnostic of the sort of life that your child is likely to lead at the school.

At the same time, it is terribly hard to establish the level of discipline in a school. When an inspector comes in, everything is perfect. It is the natural reaction of pupils as well as teachers to be on good behaviour when there is an inspector around, whatever things are like on other days. It is one of the reasons—I imagine that we will come back to this with other amendments—why it is important for inspectors to talk to pupils and parents, not just through stilted interviews but by giving them time to talk on their own terms and taking time to listen to them. That is how you get a feeling for what is going on and start to pick up the histories and feelings that are indicative of the problems in behaviour and discipline in a school.

The other thing that the inspectors must get right is understanding that discipline comes in all forms. The inspectors had a problem with Summerhill a few years back. I think that they have now learnt that you can have something close to anarchy that is, none the less, disciplined. Schools come in all styles and sizes, and it is important to understand whether, in the context of the spirit of the school, the school is disciplined, rather than expecting some sort of model with everyone sitting at desks in a regimented way, as happens with pupils at lots of schools—usually under threat of expulsion. Good discipline means an environment in which pupils are happy and can fulfil themselves and learn well.

Lord Filkin: We have had an important debate on a crucial issue. At the North of England conference on 6 January, my new Secretary of State made discipline and behaviour in schools one of the central elements of what was effectively her maiden speech. She said that universal high standards required universal good behaviour in our schools. She went on to talk about the contract between the parents and the schools and what it implied and about how badly behaved pupils damaged their own education and that of their classmates. So, we know how crucial the matter is and how crucial it is to find ways of making things better in schools where they are not good enough.

We agree that the inspection should report on behaviour and discipline in schools. The framework for the inspection of schools that is being developed to
 
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support the new arrangements will capture the position on pupil behaviour and discipline in all schools. We are already committed to ensuring that behaviour and discipline will be covered fully by school inspection.

The inspection of behaviour already plays an important part in Ofsted's remit, as it is possible through the current statutory purposes. It will be strengthened through our proposed extension of the remit of the chief inspector in reporting on the school's contribution to the well-being of pupils. The inclusion of a reference to well-being in the purposes of inspection will, therefore, serve the intention of placing behaviour and discipline firmly within the inspection remit.

Under the current inspection framework, the inspector must report on attitudes and behaviour, including attendance at school; the extent to which pupils show interest in school life; the extent to which pupils behave well in lessons and around the school; the extent to which pupils are willing to take responsibility; the extent to which pupils are free from bullying, racism and other forms of harassment; and the extent to which pupils form constructive relationships with others. There is a clear, prescriptive template for evaluation. Similarly, the new inspection framework will require specific, explicit judgments about behaviour on each school that is inspected.

We recognise the importance of such matters. The Government's Behaviour and Attendance programme includes action and support—some specifically targeted—aimed at helping schools, LEAs and parents. Ofsted will support that programme through ongoing thematic studies and advice on best practice.

I have already spoken about the inclusion of the reference to well-being and how it strengthens the chief inspector's remit. Behaviour and attendance are fundamental to the raising of school standards and attainment and cannot be seen in isolation. We are committed to giving every child the opportunity to achieve his or her goals. By inspecting behaviour and discipline as part of a school's overall contribution to well-being, Ofsted helps every school to identify its strengths and areas for improvement.

The amendments tabled for Wales by the noble Lords, Lord Hanningfield and Lord Roberts of Conwy, and the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Bolton—that is, Amendments Nos. 79 and 83—would, under Clause 19, introduce a duty on the chief inspector to inform the Assembly about the behaviour of pupils and levels of discipline and a duty on an inspector conducting an inspection under Clause 27 to report on the behaviour of pupils and levels of discipline at a school.

The Assembly recognises the difficulties faced by head teachers and other staff when dealing with disruptive pupils and is firmly committed to promoting discipline and order in schools. All children should have the chance to study free from disruption and teachers need the tools to help them to minimise it when it occurs. LEAs must
 
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have in place behaviour support plans that should give details of training, consultation, guidance and other services available to schools to help them effectively manage pupil behaviour. All must have effective, clear behaviour policies.

For those reasons, under Clause 19, dealing with the functions of chief inspectors, a chief inspector is required to inform the Assembly about the spiritual, moral, social and cultural development of pupils. To reflect and to discharge that duty the new common inspection framework introduced in Wales from September 2004 makes explicit reference to behaviour and discipline. Under the new framework, inspectors will be required in every instance to assess how a school contributes to the development by pupils of personal, social and learning skills. That will include judgments on the extent to which pupils behave responsibly and show respect for others, achieve high levels of attendance and punctuality, show motivation, and work productively and make effective use of time.

There is no difference between us on the importance of those points and the importance of making improvement. I hope that I have been able to illustrate how Ofsted, now and in the future, will have very clear and explicit duties to inspect on behaviour and discipline in schools and to report on them, which has clearly been the thrust of the debate.

Recognising that all that will happen, a number of noble Lords asked how we can make the system work even better. It is not a simple matter. The noble Baroness, Lady Perry, is right: in part, it is a function of good teaching. There is a relationship.

I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, is right that that is a dimension that interests parents passionately. Common sense tells them that an orderly school is one in which a child is more likely to learn and one that will provide a more comfortable environment—rather than a semi-anarchic one—in which a child can live.

The noble Lord, Lord Dearing, signalled the extent of what we are doing, but I shall not weary the House with that now. He also asked questions about how we can ensure that Ofsted's standards are sufficiently high. I do not mean that as a rude remark about Ofsted, but it is a good question. How do we ensure that our ambitions are high enough by comparison with those of other countries?

The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, touched on the fact that regardless of the length or shortness of an inspection, it is not a simple matter to get a fix on exactly what is happening on discipline in a school. He is also right to say that there is a linkage with SEN performance. If a school is performing poorly on SEN, that will lead fairly rapidly to behavioural problems, and not solely in primary schools.

I am with the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, on the fact that that issue is vital. Regardless of whether such provision is put in the Bill—and clearly we do not believe that its inclusion would make an improvement—the issue of how to improve is still before us. I shall not signal that I expect to return with a magic answer, but the quality of the debate requires us all to reflect further on
 
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what can be done to make the objectives we share work more powerfully through this part of the process. It is a central part.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, that the new Welsh ombudsman will be able to investigate complaints relating to Estyn in the future. Therefore, movement is taking place there. He also asked what the Assembly is doing about pupil attendance and discipline. Rather than go into detail now, as that will take more time, perhaps I can write to him with an answer and copy it to other Members. I hope that that has been helpful.

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