---

Lord Flowers: My Lords, my recollection is that the Nirex inquiry was held in public.

Lord Whitty: My Lords, for that part of the inquiry process—yes. But my point is that at that inquiry we were unable to provide an audit trail backwards to say that we had looked at all other options. The point of this process is that we can clearly demonstrate, not only that there are good reasons for proposing a particular facility and a particular site, but, to reach that conclusion, that we have looked at all options. That will be necessary if we are to carry public opinion with us on the identification of any site. That is precisely what the CoRWM process is about. We will not take the position of deciding on the option, announcing and defending it, and, as in the case of Nirex, eventually having to abandon it. Whatever people's views of nuclear power are, whatever they believe the optimum option is, that would not be an attractive proposition for anyone.

At the point where we have adopted the generic solution and the process of site identification, it would be the job not only of CoRWM but also of government, and Ministers in particular, to persuade the public. But CoRWM can play an important role in informing and educating the public and taking through the process.

Much of the criticism in the report and tonight has been about delay at various points in the process—certainly since 1997. I am not defending every aspect of the time that it has taken. In hindsight, there have been points where we could have moved faster and where the internal decision-making process of the Government has taken longer than would have been ideal. But we have not been standing still. The noble Lord, Lord Tombs, was slightly mistaken in the dates that he mentioned, but, nevertheless, at one point I was more optimistic than events proved to be, in terms of our report. It was a very long spring that year.
 
12 Jan 2005 : Column 349
 

Equally, much has happened since the Science and Technology Committee published its first report in March 1999. Under the Energy Act, we have set up the Nuclear Decommissioning Agency, and we have set out the position in the Energy White Paper, whether or not noble Lords agree with it. Serious security reviews have taken place in the light of 9/11, and appropriate action has been taken to ensure that those are taken into account in this process. We have also now initiated the CoRWM process.

I appreciate that noble Lords will have some criticism of the delay that occurred up to the establishment of CoRWM. I am not holding up my hands to all those criticisms but I understand them. However, since the establishment of CoRWM, it is very difficult to argue that the committee should have been bounced into making a decision more quickly than we are asking it to do—that is, by 2006. It needs to go through the whole process; it needs to engage the public; and it needs to take into account what is happening internationally as well as nationally, and that takes time. We are talking about a decision which, as noble Lords have said, could have effects for millennia. In a shorter time-scale, if we make a mistake, any long-term strategy which is wrong will cost this country billions of pounds. In any case, even if the implementation of the strategy is right, it will cost a great deal of money. It is therefore important that we allow the committee to make a sound recommendation.

Of course, once the committee makes its recommendation in 2006, site identification and other consequential issues will have to be dealt with. We think that that final process could take until 2008. Therefore, that is what we are now talking about in terms of the full timetable. However, in the light of those decisions—a decision in principle will be made much earlier than that—and in the light of the length of time that will be needed for the operation of the outcome of this process, we are talking about a relatively short timescale. I believe that it would be dangerous and unfortunate if we tried to speed it up.

A number of other points were made about the nature of the problem and I shall reply to some of them in writing, but perhaps I should use my remaining minutes to reply to one or two matters that occur to me. For example, the noble Lord, Lord Lewis, raised the issue of overseas waste. Thorp began processing overseas waste in the mid-1990s. With the creation of a new NDA, which will be taking over responsibility for this activity, we expect the first returns to begin in 2007–08. So we are making progress on that front.

The noble Lord also raised the issue of low-level waste management, which is not covered by this process. Various means are available for the management of low-level waste, including Drigg, as the noble Lord said, with on-site burial taking place there. We are confident that we have the means to manage low-level waste for the foreseeable future, but at some point the Government may need to give attention to replacement facilities for those at Drigg.

The noble Lord, Lord Lewis, also referred to the future of the Radioactive Waste Management Advisory Committee. It has not been abolished but it
 
12 Jan 2005 : Column 350
 
has been put into abeyance while CoRWM continues this process. The Government are committed to reviewing the future of the advisory machinery once CoRWM has completed its task.

There are probably other points to which I should reply. I shall check the debate and do so in writing. But before I sit down I should make one other point. It may be controversial but I am not a visceral opponent of nuclear power. I am not convinced that there is an immediate need for a nuclear Bill, and I do not think that those who attack the Energy White Paper on the grounds that nuclear power should play a bigger part are at present on sound ground.

Nevertheless, the situation could well arise where nuclear power needs to be part of the equation and, in any case, as noble Lords have said, it is clearly part of the future of energy sourcing internationally. But I do not think that the advocates of nuclear power do their case any good by trying to deny or minimise the problems of handling nuclear waste or its safety and environmental effects or by attacking other alternative low carbon technologies.

We are looking to replace high carbon use, whether by renewable fuels or, in certain contexts, by nuclear power. It should not be an argument between renewables and nuclear power; it should be about how to minimise our use of carbon-based technologies, through energy efficiency and other measures and how we can make them cleaner and less damaging to the environment and of course in relation to climate change.

Lord Marlesford: My Lords, does the Minister accept that nuclear power is a renewable fuel?

Lord Whitty: My Lords, I accept that it is a low-carbon technology, which in certain contexts is renewable, but until we solve the waste problem, it is not necessarily a sustainable fuel. Therefore, it does not meet all the criteria of the renewable element. Of course, the energy White Paper does not rely on the whole of carbon-based technology being replaced by renewables. That is a distortion that some of the advocates of nuclear power and the opponents of wind farms, including the noble Lord, occasionally imply, saying that we are replacing coal, oil and gas by renewables in our energy policy. That is not the intention. It remains to be seen whether nuclear power is required within the UK context in the period to 2050. We are certainly doing all that we can to keep that nuclear option open, but at the moment, we are not convinced that there is a need to commit to future nuclear build.

I thought I would get that off my chest before I sat down. I thank all noble Lords who have participated in the debate.

Lord Hunt of Chesterton: My Lords, before the Minister sits down, I have worked on both aspects, nuclear and non-nuclear. Does he agree that CoRWM should be able to take a very broad view of all aspects of nuclear waste? It seems to be considered more in the United States, in the International Atomic Energy Agency and in Russia. Dealing with nuclear waste is a
 
12 Jan 2005 : Column 351
 
broader issue, involving both nuclear fusion, proliferation and so on and at the moment in Britain it is discussed in a series of separate boxes. Will the Government broaden out the issue, as happens in other countries?

Lord Whitty: My Lords, some of these points are being pursued elsewhere. Certainly the overall approach to nuclear power as a possible component of future energy policy will take into account all those wider issues.

Lord Lewis of Newnham: My Lords, before the Minister sits down, could he answer my question on the liquid waste? He emphasised the point that CoRWM is concerned with the disposal of solid waste, whereas the high activity waste will probably be in a liquid form for the best part of 20 years because of heat generation.

Lord Whitty: My Lords, I do not believe I said that precisely. However, I shall write to the noble Lord to clarify the point.

Lord Oxburgh: My Lords, we have had a full and most valuable debate. I thank noble Lords for their diverse and interesting contributions to the discussion.
 
12 Jan 2005 : Column 352
 
There is no time now to pursue many of the points that have been raised, but it is important to make two points.

First, the Science and Technology Committee took no position on the future of nuclear power. We were primarily and solely concerned with dealing with the current and present problem. Secondly, I want to emphasise, if I did so inadequately when I first spoke, that we intended no criticism of individual members of CoRWM. Our belief was that the Government, through Defra, had selected the wrong team for the job. We were particularly concerned how that could have happened without taking proper technical advice from his internal, departmental resources. The Minister did not address that point. However, I thank the Minister for the clarifications he has given on a number of important points. We are very grateful to him for that.

I hope that today's debate will be of value to the Minister and to his department in framing and sharpening their reply to our report. The committee, from tonight's showing, and the wider House will await that reply with great interest. In the light of that reply, the committee will take a view on whether to bring these matters to the attention of the House again. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.

Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

---