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Lord Roberts of Conwy: I rise to say a few words in response to the Minister's comments on Amendments Nos. 45 and 46, which I shall not press. However, I am bound to say that I thought the phrase "at least half" would be subject to more dispute and argument than that of "a substantial proportion". I accept what he has said—that the phrase "at least half" is the familiar formulation. However, if it results in less potential for dispute than my proposal, so be it.
Again, I accept that my inclusion of the word "charge" in Amendment No. 46 is not helpful in that it would extend quite considerably the range of bodies which might be listed authorities.
Lord Rowlands: In the light of our discussion, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Schedule 3 [Listed authorities]:
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting moved Amendment No. 44:
The noble Lord said: In moving Amendment No. 44 I shall speak also to Amendment No. 49. These are essentially technical amendments to the descriptions of regional flood defence committees both in this Bill
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and in the Local Government Act 1974. However, while they are technical, they are necessary to remove the risk of a gap in ombudsman jurisdiction relating to these committees, between the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales and the Commission for Local Administration in England.
The intention of these amendments is to ensure that residents living on either side of the England/Wales border have access to an ombudsman if they have a complaint relating to the regional flood defence committee in whose area they happen to live.
I wrote in detail on this point in my letter last week to noble Lords. In view of that, I do not propose to speak at length about the amendments. I beg to move.
Lord Roberts of Conwy: This is an important brace of amendments which, as the Minister has made clear, will ensure that there is no gap in ombudsman jurisdictional coverage of regional flood defence committees along the borders of England and Wales. Rivers are no respecters of national boundaries. Successive governments have recognised that in the cross-border scope they have given to the Wales regional and Severn-Trent regional flood defence committees. These government amendments will make the Bill consistent with the definitions applicable to internal drainage boards, which is highly desirable.
Cross-border issues can be controversial in areas where they arise. The fact that, under Clause 24, the Welsh ombudsman can consult and co-operate with the relevant English ombudsman should be helpful in this context because while each may investigate matters only in relation to his respective country, it is conceivable that the matter being investigated may have wider implications requiring joint action on their part.
It is worth saying a little about these important amendments because I know that they address matters which arouse considerable interest in cross-border areas.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Schedule 3, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 28 [Restrictions on power to amend Schedule 3]:
[Amendments Nos. 45 and 46 not moved.]
Clause 32 [Publicity for complaints procedures]:
Lord Roberts of Conwy moved Amendment No. 47:
The noble Lord said: Clause 32 deals with publicity by listed authorities for complaints procedures and the amendment would strengthen the requirement by removing the qualifying phrase "take reasonable steps to", because that can be variously interpreted by different bodies. Some will use small print, some large and so on. It seems to me that this is an area where the ombudsman might issue guidance about how the
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public is to be adequately informed. That the public should be so informed when dealing with a listed authority is beyond question. I beg to move.
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: Clause 32 makes it a requirement that a listed authority must include information about the ombudsman in any literature that it provides on its provision of services, in its procedures for dealing with complaints and in its response to a complaint. But it further provides that a listed authority must take reasonable steps to draw a person's attention to his or her right to complain to the ombudsman.
The Government's view is that the amendment, which will remove the qualification that a listed authority must take reasonable steps to provide information to the public on the role of the ombudsman, has the potential to narrow the requirement. I am sure that the Committee will agree that there are many ways in which information can be provided. A public information leaflet that is one of many different such leaflets available from a listed authority's reception area, if one happens to be passing through, is different from using another media if it is available to the authority. For example, if a listed authority has a website and publishes information on it, it would be reasonable to expect it to publish information on the ombudsman and not just put a leaflet in reception. The ombudsman has power to issue guidance on that and that is demonstrated by Clause 32(3). I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Roberts of Conwy: I accept the Minister's explanation and comment. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 33 [Compensation for the person aggrieved]:
Schedule 6 [Consequential amendments]:
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting moved Amendment No. 49:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Schedule 6, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 39 to 41 agreed to.
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7.30 p.m.
Clause 42 [Consequential, transitional provisions etc]:
Lord Roberts of Conwy moved Amendment No. 50:
The noble Lord said: This amendment deals with an almighty provision that gives power to the Assembly to "amend, repeal or revoke" any previous enactment or any future enactment passed in this Session. I am right in thinking that the power is limited to giving effect to the provisions of this Act. I am sure that I am right on that. The futuristic element is interesting. I wonder whether the Minister can tell us which Bills outlined in the Queen's Speech at the opening of this Session should be amended to take account of this Bill, but I shall not press him for an answer this evening.
Amendment No. 51 refers to Clause 43(2)(a). I do not recollect ever having seen such a provision as this one before, enabling an Assembly order to,
What on earth does that mean? Is its scope as broad as it appears within the ambit of the Bill? I can understand the need for the rest of the clause, but that is a catch-all subsection. Perhaps the Minister can give us an idea of what might be done under this provision. I am bound to say that the more I see of this kind of provision, the more distrustful and suspicious of unforeseen consequences I become. Either the subsection has a definite purpose in view or it does not, in which case it is unnecessary and should be removed. I beg to move.
Lord Prys-Davies: Again I found the memorandum from the Wales Office to the Select Committee on Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform to be helpful. It is my understanding—I think that it is fairly clear from the memorandum—that the operation of subsection (1) is not confined purely to this Act but to all primary legislation which has consequences for this Bill.
I was at first attracted by the amendment to delete subsection (2) because it is quite clear that by virtue of this provision the Assembly would not have the power to amend any future legislation. I therefore found it attractive to strike that out of the Bill. However, if it is to stay in the Bill, as it probably will, then it places a duty on the Welsh Assembly, and indeed on Westminster, to ensure that in future legislation there are no consequences that could in any way damage the role of the commissioner under this legislation. We have previously been concerned about primary legislation that comes before us which could be in some way damaging to the legislation. The Assembly and Westminster have to ensure that there are no such consequences in future legislation.
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