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Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. I am reassured. I take no issue with its content but the statutory instrument and the lack of scrutiny by Parliament still bothers us. We may well need to return to this issue. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 5 [Bodies established under Treaty on European Union]:

Baroness Rawlings moved Amendment No. 2A:


"( ) This section comes into force the day after Her Majesty's Government have initiated a review within the Council of the European Union of the privileges and immunities which ought to be extended to the bodies and persons to which this section applies.""

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, this is a simple amendment that I hope will help someway satisfy those who were involved in the debate on Clause 5 in Committee—although I note that it does not go as far as the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, would like.

It is effectively a sunrise amendment. It states that this section of the Bill could not come into force until Her Majesty's Government have initiated a review with the Council of the European Union. With our country's forthcoming presidency of the Council, this is a simple undertaking. Indeed, I believe that legally the amendment would not require the completion of such a review, although I rather hope that Her Majesty's Government would be gentlemanly enough to do so.

I should like to remind the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, of the extremely sensible words he used in Grand Committee:


 
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The amendment would provide the aforesaid occasion. If we are not to continue to be remiss in our commitments under European treaties, I hope the Minister will seize the option. I beg to move.

Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, it may be helpful to intervene in support of this amendment, even though there are a number of things I wish to say on Amendments Nos. 4 and 5. It is not our intention to block the Bill or to make things difficult for the Government; it is our intention, both on the Conservative and Liberal Democrat Benches, to make sure that this extension of immunity does not go by unobserved.

With my academic as well as my political hat on, I am struck by the extent to which the extension of international organisations and international agencies escapes scrutiny by national parliaments. As we heard from the Government Front Bench today, the argument is always made that, "We cannot do anything on our own without renegotiating with another 52 governments"—or whatever number it may be, depending on which organisation is involved—"so, by and large, we have to let things go".

It is our intention, both in this amendment which relates to the European Union and in Amendments Nos. 4 and 5 which relate to other organisations, to raise the question of how far international immunities should be maintained and extended. We recognise the impossibility of unilateral change, as has been argued, so we urge the desirability of promoting multilateral reconsideration.

There should be a general bias in favour of fewer immunities rather than more, and of fewer beneficiaries of immunities rather than more. I really cannot see why, for example, the European Schools need any diplomatic immunities. I am not entirely sure why the European Space Agency needs all the immunities it has. As the number of agencies associated with the European Union continues to expand—and it will—this is a question that we ought to raise.

We very much hope that Her Majesty's Government will therefore be willing to say in response to both amendments that they will undertake to commission a broad multilateral review of what is needed. We were told in Committee that the protocol that governs EU immunities is the European Economic Community protocol of 1965. That is a short time ago, but I think that everyone would agree that the European Union has expanded not only its membership but its competences enormously since then.

We were told that immunities with regard to other international organisations were governed by the Vienna Convention 1961—even longer ago. It seems, therefore, entirely appropriate that Her Majesty's Government should promote and initiate some sort of multilateral review. I cannot resist suggesting, since I see the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, in his place, that we have an excellent potential chairman of such a multilateral review sitting on the Cross Benches. I am sure that he would love to undertake the task and would rapidly accept the Government's review.
 
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We are looking for a commitment that the Government will not just let the Bill go by but will take the opportunity to ask how many diplomatic immunities do how many people need, for what purposes, and how far in future negotiations, in the European Union and other international organisations, we attempt to cut down the current extension.

3.30 p.m.

Lord Triesman: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Rawlings, for her kind remarks about me—to say that anything I said was wise was always going to tempt me. I should probably congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, on flattering the noble Lord, Lord Kerr. If the debate had gone on any longer, we could probably have included all noble Lords in the House. I should like to start by making a general comment about why we confer privileges and immunities on organisations and bodies, including the ones that we are discussing today, and then turn to the substance of the noble Baroness's amendment.

Privileges and immunities are conferred on organisations and bodies to ensure that they are able to carry out their functions without being impeded. All the bodies that have been mentioned—some of them will sound curious in this context—make important policy decisions, and all are capable of being leaned on if they have vulnerabilities that are not covered by such international arrangements. The general policy of the Government in this respect goes back some way, certainly through the 1980s. Privileges and immunities should be granted primarily on the basis of functional need. The scope of the privileges and immunities conferred, and the organisations and bodies on which they are conferred, are determined only by the international obligations into which the United Kingdom enters.

As regards the organisations and bodies covered by the Bill, we have signed international agreements committing us to confer privileges and immunities on them. They are commitments that this country has entered into in good faith. A number of those agreements are of long standing; those for the OSCE, the ECHR and ITLOS were signed in 1993, 1996 and 1997 respectively. Any further delay in implementing those agreements could be interpreted as a real lack of commitment to those organisations.

I understand the noble Baroness's point about a sunrise clause. She invites me to say that this is the occasion on which to trigger the mechanism. However, I am afraid that I do not think that it is the occasion to initiate the review within the Council of the European Union on the privileges and immunities that ought to be extended to bodies created under Titles 5 and 6 of the Treaty on European Union. That is because EU member state governments negotiate specific agreements covering privileges and immunities for each body. It is the Government's policy and was the previous government's policy—it goes back some way—to ensure that the privileges and immunities are granted on the basis of a functional need. We had this discussion in Committee—it is specifically on the basis
 
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of a functional need. The Government are satisfied that the privileges and immunities granted to the bodies are necessary so that they can function properly and fully.

I suggest that noble Lords who have taken part in the debate, or other noble Lords who have a specific interest in the issue, might meet my noble friend Lady Symons of Vernham Dean to look through the issues involved in the amendment, see whether further clarification is required and have an exchange of views.

The general issue came up in Committee about whether we should always be prepared to review such matters, quite aside from whether this is the right moment to do so. I said on that occasion that people should not close their mind to thinking in fresh ways. We do not think that the mechanism proposed in the amendment would be right, but we believe that the kind of discussion I have offered on behalf of my noble friend Lady Symons would be very timely.

Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I am disappointed by that rather wimpish response. I often regret that Her Majesty's Government do not pursue the more positive areas of our commitment to European co-operation more vigorously.


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