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Lord Tebbit: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. She is describing the difference between what we might describe as externally caused depressions and those that are internal—those which, undoubtedly in my view, spring from some form of disorder within one, not from the circumstances in which one finds oneself. I can agree very largely with her on that distinction. I am not quite sure that I would go all the way with her from there, but she certainly makes a valid distinction.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit. That is precisely what I was trying to say. Because I do not have the clinician's vocabulary, I was trying not to use the terms "external" and "internal". The degree to which one responds to a life event may also depend on one's own makeup and mental health and the degree of one's fatigue perhaps from a nursing background and so on. That is why it is not so clear-cut.

The noble Lord is, however, absolutely right. I was trying to make that distinction. Somebody may be unfortunate enough to have two or three battering life events but none the less manage to pick himself up over time in such a way that those events cannot suggest a period of discrimination with an employer. The person might, for example, say, "My mother has died. It has set me back, but I have had some counselling and I am now fine". That seems very different from a situation where one has episodes due to an underlying illness, propensity or impairment, such that the person needs the protection of the DDA.

We are drawing that line. But, as I say, I am happy to take this forward by seeking further medical advice and the like to ensure that GPs identify the condition and situation of people whose depression is an
 
8 Feb 2005 : Column 672
 
underlying impairment. I hope that with those assurances the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, I am in a slight quandary. The basis of the amendment has been supported all around the House with the exception of the Minister. I am particularly grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, who called this a "modest amendment seeking to correct a wrong". And it is a wrong.

I do not know how many of your Lordships know about the case of Taylor v Sunterra Europe Ltd. Taylor first suffered a depression in 1993, and then again in 1996. He was treated with medication and counselling until 1998. He was then employed from April to July 1999, at which time he was told his employment would be terminated. On dismissal he experienced an episode of depression. Yet he was not covered by the Disability Discrimination Act because, in intervening periods, he did not suffer any substantial adverse effect on day-to-day activities. Furthermore, at the time of the applicant's employment and at the date of the hearing, the applicant was free of any substantial adverse effects.

This amendment would have stopped that stone-dead, because clearly—almost to quote the Minister—this is an episode which was indicative of a repetitive problem and the Act did not come into play. On that basis, I wish to test the opinion of the House.

3.36 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 38) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 138; Not-Contents, 131.


Division No. 1


CONTENTS

Addington, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Ampthill, L.
Avebury, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Biffen, L.
Blatch, B.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Bridges, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Courtown, E.
Craigavon, V.
Cumberlege, B.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Dykes, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fitt, L.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Garden, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Goodhart, L.
Greengross, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
Macfarlane of Bearsden, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Maddock, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
May of Oxford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
Michie of Gallanach, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Montrose, D.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murphy, B.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Neuberger, B.
Noakes, B.
Northesk, E.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Onslow, E.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plumb, L.
Redesdale, L.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Sandwich, E.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selsdon, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheppard of Didgemere, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Steinberg, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trenchard, V.
Ullswater, V.
Vallance of Tummel, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Warnock, B.
Weatherill, L.
Wilcox, B.
Windlesham, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President of the Council)
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bhatia, L.
Bhattacharyya, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Chan, L.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Condon, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Drayson, L.
D'Souza, B.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Gregson, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskins, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kinnock, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Leitch, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Marsh, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Maxton, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Nicol, B.
Parekh, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pendry, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Quirk, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.


Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.


 
8 Feb 2005 : Column 674
 
3.45 p.m.

Lord Skelmersdale moved Amendment No. 39:


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