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Baroness Carnegy of Lour: My Lords, before the Minister sits down, with the greatest respect, this part of the Bill is not about all that, but about whether the chief inspector reports to the Secretary of State on how it is all going—the overall picture.

The noble Baroness on the Liberal Democrat Front Bench made that point about the previous amendment. This is a general requirement. If, after all that the Minister has said, the chief inspector is not
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obliged to report to the Secretary of State on that matter, where are we? It is a very strange reply that he has given.

Lord Filkin: My Lords, I want to respond to the noble Baroness—briefly, because I do not think we have a meeting of minds on this.

If we thought that there was the slightest doubt that the chief inspector would not see that behaviour, attendance and discipline were not central to learning and the ability of schools to teach, we would put such a duty on him. It is obvious that he sees that. I have reinforced and explained that for all the procedural guidance. The killer, in summation, is that he has been doing that for every one of the past 13 years. Thank heavens that he has. He will continue to do so in the future.

Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, of course it was extremely reassuring to hear what he had to say about the future. What is really worrying me is this same quote from the National Audit Office, to the effect that Ofsted inspection teams have had a very small part in most inspections. There is a risk that the most is not being made of inspectors' wide experience to help schools and authorities improve.

The Minister is talking about the future—we are all impressed with the extent to which the Secretary of State has laid out plans and the noble Lord has reiterated them—but it has not been happening in the past. Clearly, if one has taken note of what the National Audit Office said, why not reinforce the whole thing by putting it in the Bill?

Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, it has been an interesting debate. I am going to use some of my experience as, apart from being on the Front Bench here, I am leader of the authority with the most schools and most pupils in the whole country—600 schools.

I have seen things at first hand for many years. I do not often agree with the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, but in this case I do. Schools need help. They really need help.

What we are doing by putting this in the Bill is raising its profile in Ofsted inspections. I very much support what the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, just said. For years we had the same problem. I have seen a school turned round very rapidly by a new head teacher—the same school, the same pupils. It can be done. Therefore, we raise the profile.

I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, that we need to tackle the problems to get the cure. What we are trying to do is to give a little help. I want to repeat that it is probably our biggest problem in the whole education world at the moment. I support what the Secretary of State says, but one swallow does not make a summer and one speech does not cure the problem. We need the problem cured at the roots, which is in the schools.

In my own county there are different problems in different schools, different solutions for different areas. It is not easy. I have tried to tackle it and am very
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much one of the ones concerned about it. I sincerely believe that this is one of the most important amendments that I am putting forward. As the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, just said, we must raise the profile and use the Ofsted inspections and inspectors to help the whole system, to help schools solve it. Every school needs a different solution. There is no national solution. By putting it in the Bill we are raising the profile. I know that all the good work will continue but this amendment is needed if we are going to get the education system to work in this country. I must test the feeling of the House.

6.46 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 14) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 127; Not-Contents, 120.

Division No. 3


Addington, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Blaker, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Caithness, E.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Cumberlege, B.
Denham, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dykes, L.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fookes, B.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Freyberg, L.
Garden, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Greaves, L.
Greenway, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Richmond, B. [Teller]
Hayhoe, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Home, E.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Kalms, L.
Kimball, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lindsay, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mancroft, L.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Montrose, D.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Neill of Bengarve, B.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patten, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Roper, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Sandberg, L.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Steinberg, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trenchard, V.
Tugendhat, L.
Ullswater, V.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Warnock, B.
Wolfson, L.


Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President of the Council)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blood, B.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Carter, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Crawley, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
David, B.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dearing, L.
Dixon, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Falkender, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grantchester, L.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Leitch, L.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
McDonagh, B.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Paul, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Portsmouth, Bp.
Prosser, B.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Snape, L.
Sutherland of Houndwood, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Whitaker, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

21 Feb 2005 : Column 1051
6.57 p.m.

Lord Hanningfield moved Amendment No. 15:

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