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Guaranteed Minimum Pensions Increase Order 2005

Baroness Hollis of Heigham rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 1 February be approved [8th Report from the Joint Committee].

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 1 February be approved [8th Report from the Joint Committee].—(Baroness Hollis of Heigham.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Baroness Andrews: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure until 8.45 p.m.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

[The Sitting was suspended from 8.33 to 8.45 p.m.]

Prevention of Terrorism Bill

House again in Committee on Clause 7.

On Question, Whether Clause 7 shall stand part of the Bill?

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: Clause 7 still has, for example, the test on what happens with a non-derogating order. Even with the amendments made
 
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earlier in the day, the order has to be made by the judge in the first instance, but there is still a test to be satisfied when it comes back on appeal. There are issues about whether you want to amend that, but without Clause 7 there are no principles to be applied.

I would respectfully submit, without in any way precluding people from coming back for further amendments on Report, the right thing is that Clause 7 should stand part of the Bill.

Lord Kingsland: As I understand it, we now have a common procedure for considering both derogating and non-derogating orders—initiated by a judge and involving consideration of the issues thereafter on their merits. That cuts out the core of Clause 7, which is the procedure already initiated by the Secretary of State and that might then be considered by the system of judicial review. That, surely, has all gone.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: May I make the following suggestion? The right thing for us to do is to look closely at the effect of the amendments voted by the Committee earlier in the day. We will then bring forward the appropriate amendments on Clause 7.

I am anxious about not agreeing to Clause 7 at this stage. We will loyally give effect to the decisions that the Committee made, without prejudice to our ability to seek different changes to the Bill in the other place.

I would be very anxious if Clause 7 did not form part of the Bill. In light of my undertaking to give effect to the votes, to tidy it up accordingly, I respectfully submit that the right course is that Clause 7 stand part of the Bill.

Lord Goodhart: I think that we may well put down an amendment to leave out Clause 7, on that basis. Perhaps we could leave it in for the moment. I find it very difficult to see, because it is all about flawed decisions by the Secretary of State. They would be gone.

Lord Kingsland: I share the view of the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart. It seems to me as well that it is very difficult to put one's finger on what survives from Clause 7.

However, the noble and learned Lord has undertaken to remove anything from Clause 7 that is inconsistent with previous votes. That is without prejudice to what might occur in another place. On that undertaking, I am prepared on behalf of my opposition team and of all members of the Opposition who sit behind me to allow Clause 7 to go through.

It may well be, from the point of view of belt and braces, that we should adopt the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, to table an amendment excluding Clause 7 and see what the Government come up with tomorrow.

Lord Clinton-Davis: Before the noble Lord gives way, will he speak up, please?

Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.
 
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Clause 8 [Appeals relating to derogating control orders]:

[Amendments Nos. 139 and 140 not moved.]

Clause 8 agreed to.

Clause 9 [Jurisdiction and appeals in relation to control order decisions etc.]:

[Amendments Nos. 141 to 143 not moved.]

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 144:

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 145 not moved.]

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 146:


"( ) proceedings on an application to the court by any person for the making, renewal, modification or revocation of a derogating control order;
( ) proceedings on an application to extend the detention of a person under section (Arrest and detention pending derogating control order);
( ) proceedings at or in connection with a hearing to determine whether to confirm a derogating control order (with or without modifications);
( ) proceedings on an appeal under section 7;"

On Question, amendment agreed to.

The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Gould of Potternewton): Before calling Amendment No. 147, I should inform the Committee that I shall not be able to call Amendment No. 148 if that were to be carried for reason of pre-emption.

Lord Thomas of Gresford had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 147:

The noble Lord said: The purpose of the amendment is to try to tidy matters up and make them understandable. Paragraphs (a) to (f) define control proceedings by references to various other clauses, some of which we have already removed—for example, Clause 2. It seems to me that the simplest thing to do is to tie it all up as,

I do not think I have left anything out of subsection (6) by the amendment.

The Deputy Chairman of Committees: I apologise. Amendments Nos. 147 and 147A were pre-empted by the acceptance of Amendment No. 146.

[Amendments Nos. 147 and 147A not moved.]

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 148:


 
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The noble and learned Lord said: Amendment No. 148 is a consequence of inserting the arrest power by Amendment No. 91, to which my noble friend Lady Scotland has already spoken. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 148A not moved.]

Lord Thomas of Gresford moved Amendment No. 149:

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendments Nos. 150 to 153 not moved.]

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 154:

The noble and learned Lord said: Amendment No. 154 is consequential on the arrest and detention clause put in by Amendment No. 91. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 10 [Effect of court's decisions on convictions]:

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendments Nos. 155 and 156:

The noble and learned Lord said: The amendments are consequential on amendments that have already been made. I beg to move.

On Question, amendments, agreed to.

Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 11 [Reporting and review]:


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