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Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, we on these Benches strongly support what the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, has said, and I will briefly add a few arguments. We indicated last night that, in our view, the link between the review and the sunset clause is absolutely crucial. First, a review without a sunset clause can easily be tossed aside and disregarded, as was that of the committee of the noble Lord, Lord Newton of Braintree, despite its excellence. Secondly, there is another profound reason, which the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, touched upon—that is, the issue of how seriously Parliament is to be taken. If the counter-terrorism Bill of 2001 was rushed through Parliament, this legislation is being stampeded through it, and there is no adequate consideration of the terms of the Bill.
It is sometimes felt that our Executive—even our Prime Minister, brilliant communicator though he is—increasingly does not treat either of the Houses of Parliament with any great seriousness. Parliament's role is as much at stake in this set of issues as counter-terrorism itself. It is crucial that we stand up for the role of Parliament, which means that we need the time to think, to set a balance, and to discuss proportionality in what may well be the most important issue of our generation: how we deal with the threat of terrorism. Dealing with it wrongly can be profoundly counter-productive, as a number of your Lordships have pointed out in our debates.
Finally, in this House, with the possible exception of the Government Front Bench, a clear consensus is already building up about what a new Bill ought to look like. It is not divided on party lines, nor on lines of the particular attitude one may have as regards ones previous interests or concerns. There is clearly very wide support for a different kind of Bill.
To conclude, it is of the greatest importance that legislation passed through this House about issues concerning terrorism and—as the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, has said—any qualifications to our fundamental liberties, has the support of the great majority of parliamentarians. This Bill will not have that support; it will be deeply divisive. For the future, we need a solid base of consensus and agreement
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across parties and between the two Houses. I believe that that is in our reach, and that the sunset clause is crucial to our achieving it.
Lord Williamson of Horton: My Lords, I did not intervene at Committee stage on this point, but I would like to intervene now having heard a large number of arguments earlier. I will be brief.
The question of the sunset clause is a fundamental part of how we approach the Bill, and we need to take an early decision on it. There is obviously a large measure of agreement on some of the Government's objectives, but I have always stood for sunset clauses in other Bills. I have tried to introduce them on a number of occasions in EU legislation—I hope to do better on this Bill.
With her customary skill, the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland—who can argue the hind leg off a donkey with a certain amount of charm, I admit—sought yesterday to persuade us that a sunset clause was not correct. However, I do not think that the hind leg is going to come off this donkey. That is the situation we are in. She said that,
"we do not believe that a sunset clause on these provisions is appropriate. That is the current view of the Government".—[Official Report, 7/3/05; col. 591.]
Of course, what is current today may not be current tomorrow. I have kept that in mind, but it seems that, contrary to the Government's current view, a sunset clause is indeed appropriate. The word she used applies to the opposite side, a sunset clause is appropriate in the Bill. That is not, I repeat, an attack on the objectives of the Bill, which we all support. It is simply a recognition that we ought to make ourselves look at it again—a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, in a much more eloquent manner. We need to make ourselves look at it again because we have a lot of problems with it, and we need to let the dust settle. I do not much care whether the date for the sunset clause is a year from now, or more, or less. I do not take that point at all, but I am resolutely for a sunset clause.
The Lord Bishop of Portsmouth: My Lords, I shall be brief, and bishops do not have hind legs, so cannot be argued with in that part of their anatomy. Hindsight can be convenient, and in an ideal world this Bill should have been given much more time. For various reasons, some of them understandable and some of them less so, it has not.
I strongly support these amendments, which have come to have a symbolic value far more powerful than what they seek to express and enact in law, for the very reason that they will help to allay the considerable concerns expressed both here and in another place, and in what little public comment has been able to come across in the media in recent days.
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, earlier this afternoon, the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland, in answer I think to my noble friend Lord Forsyth, said that the comment that this Bill was being rushed did
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not benefit from being repeated any more. Of course I accept that, from time to time, Oppositions complain in both Houses that Bills are being rushed. What is important here is not that the Opposition may have claimed it, but that the Government have themselves, time after time, accepted it.
They have made it clear in almost every speech they make that these things have got to be done quickly, that they would like more time to debate them, and that they realise that they are vitally important issues—I see the noble Baroness nods—which affect the liberty of the people of this country. We have heard from the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor that striking the balance is something he would like to achieve, given time. Surely the great hope of the sunset clause is that it gives us that time. I totally agree with every word said by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, and, for all the reasons she expressed, I cannot understand why the Government are not prepared to accept this way out.
Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, I entirely agree with the point that has just been made except in one respect, on which I adopt the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Williamson. As I said on Second Reading and later, I am in favour of the sunset clause. However, I am unhappy about the date of 30 November prescribed in the amendment.
I also subscribe to the view that we should consider carefully how the Act is operating. That is the work of the committee of the noble Lord, Lord Newton. However, we cannot do that if we insist on 30 November.
I shall not repeat what I said last night. I would prefer a later date, maybe in February, but I do not dissent in any way from the principle of a sunset clause.
Why is it imperative to insist on 30 November, which is an impractical date? People have said that we should not rush this legislation, but we have done so and we have a bad Bill. I will probably vote for the sunset provision, but with a heavy heart, because 30 November is impractical. It is vital to sit back and carefully examine what has happened in the mean time. It is not impossible to wait another two or three months for that to be considered.
As I said last night, for the most part this House will not be sitting as we have the Summer Recess. It is imperative that we insist on the view of this House—not of civil servants but of this House. If we have to consider 30 November, I shall support that with bated breath, but I do not believe that it is the best way to proceed.
Lord Waddington: My Lords, in Committee I pointed out that the Bill went through the other place on a very tight timetable. Before it left the other place, the Government announced that they would introduce fundamental amendments in this place. A few days ago, I pointed out that the consequence of that would be that the Bill would never be considered properly in the House of Commons because when it returns to the House of Commons, all the deliberations will again take place under a grotesquely tight timetable.
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It is ridiculous for Parliament to proceed in this way. Even if the Bill did not affect individual rights to the extent that it does, it is quite wrong that a Bill should last for more than a few minutes, let alone a few months or a few years, when it has not been properly considered by Parliament. The strongest argument for the sunset clause is that it is wrong for a Bill to last very long when it has not been considered properly by Parliament and we know that this Bill never will be considered properly by Parliament because the amendments carried in this place will not be considered at all in the other place.
Baroness D'Souza: My Lords, I agree with nearly all that has been said on the sunset clause. Nearly all the speakers in this debate have acknowledged the very serious dilemma that the Government have to resolve: how to deal with the threat of terrorism and, at the same time, preserve fundamental rights. We all recognise what a serious dilemma that is. However, the argument that this contradictory and flawed Bill, which addresses such serious issues, should have an end date surely has to be accepted.
The Bill has been exposed as contradictory in many areas. One of the weaknesses, which has not been fully addressed as yet, is the lack of a clear definition of "terrorism". The word is used constantly in many different contexts but there is no common understanding of its meaning, hence the saying, "One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter". The definitional difficulty has allowed a vague discourse—vague enough to allow states to justify almost all actions in terms of national security and, by doing so, suddenly to justify human rights violations.
As we know, there have been many attempts to define "terrorism", including a UN ad hoc committee in 1996 which tried to draft a convention on terrorism that was ideologically neutral, but it incorporated the principle of legality. However, it failed precisely on the definitional issues. During the Reagan administration, the US definition of "terrorism" was dropped because it described almost perfectly counter-insurgency and counter-terrorism mechanisms set out in the US military manuals.
Clear definitions seem to be vital when entering the area of criminal law. Imprecise language makes for broad definitions that may encompass acts that few would regard as terrorism. The EU framework decision on terrorism, for example, includes,
which becomes a terrorist act if it is committed with specific aims. Legitimate dissent could very easily be interpreted as criminal within that framework, as could politically motivated and selective applications of it. I do not speak of this Government falling prey to such violations, but if a law of this kind were on the statute book, in the future it may well be used in circumstances over which we have no control.
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I believe that all such dangers are mitigated to some extent by strong human rights safeguards. However, in this Bill we are considering derogation from those safeguards. A definition of "terrorism" cannot characterise as criminal offences those rights which are protected under international human rights law—
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