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Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, I am extremely sorry to interrupt the noble Baroness, but her speech is beginning to sound precisely like a Second Reading speech. This is Report stage.

Baroness D'Souza: My Lords, is it in order for me to conclude?

Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, if the noble Baroness has something to say about the amendment that we are discussing, we would be delighted to hear what she has to say. I believe that the general view is that what she is saying, however interesting it may be, is a long way from the amendment.

Lord Harris of Haringey: My Lords, noble Lords who, by their advocacy of a sunset clause for November of this year, have expressed concern about the speed with which this legislation is going through the House and through the other place, seem to be in danger of creating precisely that problem a few months down the road. The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, talked of us considering the next Bill which could be dealt with by November. The reality is that we would be rushing through what we are told will be a much more complicated Bill, which will consider offences in relation to acts preparatory to terrorism and so on, in an equally unsatisfactory timetable.

If one believes that it is important that there is proper consideration and if one believes, as the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, clearly does, that there should be a review process by a committee of Privy Counsellors—no doubt we shall consider that in a few minutes—clearly there has to be time for proper consideration of all that, which is why I wonder why the amendment proposes November this year.

I believe that most Members of your Lordships' House are trying their very best to achieve consensus on these matters but, when a date such as November is put forward, I wonder whether this is about building consensus or trying to create confusion and problems. As the Bill stands it already includes very substantial processes of review: three-monthly reports by the Secretary of State; someone to review the operations of Sections 1 to 8; and a consideration of all of that. I believe that those are very important and helpful clauses. I understand that any derogation from the convention will be considered by both Houses of Parliament annually. Therefore, review processes are built in.

I understand the arguments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, about the symbolic importance and significance of putting an end date in the Bill, but to put an end date of November simply means that later this year we shall be considering
 
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another Bill, much too quickly, without the proper opportunities for consideration of the review processes that this Bill would put in place.

Lord Ackner: My Lords, I would have thought that the need for a sunset clause is absolutely obvious. The judicial process has been distorted by the rush on which the Government have insisted. Therefore, it is inevitable that there should be a sunset clause, focusing attention on how we should achieve cross-party agreement.

I do not understand the problem about the time. The long vacation is just the kind of period for the Privy Council to work, undisturbed, and decide on its views. The long vacation is very long indeed. Some people would like to be occupied during it, and I hope that the Privy Counsellors will be. I suggest to your Lordships that there cannot be any conceivable contest in regard to a sunset clause, and that what is proposed is thoroughly sensible.

The Lord Bishop of Oxford: My Lords, despite what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, has said about the long, long vacation, there are, as the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, emphasised, severe practical difficulties about that date of 30 November 2005. Perhaps the Government could indicate whether they would be willing in principle to accept a sunset clause, let us say for 30 November 2006.

Because of the important point which has been made about linking a sunset clause with Clause 18, and in particular because of the way in which the report of the noble Lord, Lord Newton, was disregarded, could the Government indicate, when we come to Clause 18—in particular, Clause 18(6)—whether they would support an amendment to the effect that not only should this report be laid before Parliament, but that it would be mandatory for Parliament to debate it?

Baroness Hayman: My Lords, I shall not repeat everything I said last night, although it is terribly tempting, given how many more people are here to hear it this afternoon than were here at ten o'clock last night.

I fundamentally support a sunset clause on this legislation, because of the issues of principle regarding the content of the Bill, which have already been spoken about, and the process by which we have legislated in this instance. I believe that it is sensible also on the grounds of practicality to have a sunset clause in this Bill because, as my noble friend Lord Harris of Haringey said, we have been promised further legislation dealing with a new offence of acts preparatory to terrorism. I hope that that will allow us greater scope for prosecution—which is what everyone agrees is the first option. We ought, logically and coherently, to review these provisions as part of the hierarchy of weapons we have to deal with terrorism—from surveillance, to control orders, to prosecution.
 
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I think that there will be that opportunity, and I hope very much that my noble friends on the Front Bench will be able to respond to this amendment in a constructive way, because I too share some of the reservations about timing that have been put forward.

It would be a supreme irony if we were, in the middle of pre-legislative scrutiny of an important piece of coherent terrorist legislation, to find ourselves with another false deadline like 14 March and legislating in the same way. I believe that it would be possible to provide perhaps for renewal, which would be more realistic, and then an absolute sunset clause, to allow the Bill to be enacted—as I think there is a universal feeling around the House that it should be—but not in such a straitjacket that it puts us back in exactly the situation we are in now. I earnestly hope that my noble friends will be able to respond to that.

Lord Elton: My Lords, that is sage advice. I remind the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Oxford and the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, that we are in confident expectation of a general election at the beginning of May. That leaves the parliamentary programme clear for June and July, as well as October and November. There is much more time available than people seem to think.

Lord Plant of Highfield: My Lords, I am very sympathetic to the position taken by my noble friend Lady Hayman. I have two reservations about the sunset clause. Given my voting record over the past couple of days, my noble friends on the Front Bench may be surprised that I have these reservations; but I do not think that my reasons will be greatly welcome.

The first reason follows up the point made by my noble friend Lady Hayman about practicality. If it is true, as was portrayed in the Guardian yesterday, that these orders will be monitored, dealt with, and imposed, as it were, by private sector companies, then presumably those companies will have to be commissioned, their staff will have to be trained, and so forth. It seems to me to be an extraordinary proposal. However, leaving that on one side for the moment, if the private sector is to be involved in enforcing the control orders, then I am not at all clear how contracts could be signed with private sector companies if the Bill died on 30 November.

It may be—and I would be very reassured to hear it—that there is no such proposal. However, if there is, it seems to me that the Government will be put in a very difficult position in making those contracts if the Bill had such a short life.

The reason for my second reservation is a very Machiavellian one, which will be even more unwelcome to the Front Bench. It is that, as has been said, there is an election pending. In my view, this Bill will leave this House much better than it entered it, and it is a Bill that I could certainly live with—if it retains its current form after the other place has had a look at it.

However, it is obviously not the Bill that the Government wanted, and they may use the election manifesto to prefigure more draconian legislation on
 
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terrorism: not just the kinds of things that my noble friend Lady Hayman was talking about, but trying to restore some of the proposals that were in this Bill. It would then have the legitimacy of the election manifesto commitment, if the governing party won the election. In those circumstances, and if the Bill were to die on 30 November, the Government would have a legitimate case for coming back with something like the Bill we have just been discussing, and which we have made a lot better, but with a greater legitimacy for the view they are trying to put forward. Therefore, I will not be supporting the sunset clause.

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