---

Lord Selsdon: My Lords, terrorism, as your Lordships know, means that government will rule by fear. In this, the Government have been extremely successful.

This Bill will do nothing to halt the fear of terrorism. It is particularly worrying, because I am opposed to the Bill and I am equally opposed to the sunset clause; but if one regards it as a safe way out, then so be it.

I once asked the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor if he could define the difference between freedom fighting and terrorism, but he could not. The fear is this. It is the signal we send out to the non-democratic countries of the world, who are watching now as we change our Home Office to become the ministry of the interior, the Commissioner of Police to become the chief of police, then the Stasi and others begin to emerge, and people are locked up. That is very frightening. We must remember, too, that in this country we have, over many years, been accused of harbouring other people's terrorists: people who seek to overthrow governments.

It is a complete shambles. Almost 200 years ago today, the Earl of Abergavenny ran aground on the Shambles Bank and was wrecked. Yesterday, as your Lordships will know, was the nones of March, and the 15th is the ides of March. I turn to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor—the Nero of the Labour Benches—and say, "Beware!".

Viscount Brookeborough: My Lords, I hesitate to suggest that one of the reasons for the need for a sunset clause has not yet been mentioned. The fight against terrorism is not just a fight against the bombers: it is also a fight for the hearts and minds of the community from which they come.

If one accepts that the present statistics in the policing world are that members of that community are stopped more often on the street, are harassed more often, and therefore already feel themselves to be under siege, the worst thing we could possibly do would be to bring in such draconian measures—as we know we may in some way have to—without our having an exit strategy or an improvement strategy at a given date. I am most certainly unconvinced that, if we do not have it, the Government will be forced into doing this within the foreseeable future.

On the hearts and minds side, we have to satisfy those communities that we are not just interning those people we wish to intern. When someone may be
 
8 Mar 2005 : Column 658
 
suspected of being a bomber or a member of such an organisation, his family will not know about it. We have had that experience in Northern Ireland. They will not know about it; they will not understand it. They will have no idea. Will there be a possibility of the children going to school and saying, "Daddy was doing this last night"? Let us be realistic. They are not unprofessional in the terrorism that they carry out.

We find that when you take an action on suspects that may be seen as being unjust, with no exit strategy, the family become totally united against you and each one of those suspects and their families, like you or me, has maybe 100 or 200 friends. They will all believe that the action is totally unjustified because they believe that the person that they know could in no way be the suspect that we perceive them to be.

5 p.m.

That is very important. It is the other half of the fight against terrorism—it is the long-term fight against terrorism. We must show those people that we will try to prove what we are doing and limit it. Therefore, in their eyes, a sunset clause is not a big hope but it is a hope that we treat this legislation seriously and that we may amend it or totally renew it and not leave it sitting on the sidelines.

Lord Brennan: My Lords, the introduction of a sunset clause at some convenient and appropriate parliamentary time is necessary for Parliament to fulfil its essential duty to seek to make good law after reasonable consideration. I remind the House that, in December last year, the Judicial Committee of this House, in ringing tones, found that Part 4 of the anti-terrorism Act of 2001 was in fundamental breach of civil liberties and human rights. I regret to say that that constitutes a blemish on the parliamentary activity that we engaged in on that Bill. Do we want to repeat the same mistake? Another blemish of a greater kind would surely lead to us not having done our duty to seek to make good law. It is a duty after reasonable consideration.

If this Bill is passed by the Commons in due course under a guillotine and there is no sunset clause, the reality is that Parliament—in particular the House of Commons—will never have properly considered the content of this Bill. That is unacceptable. History will not readily forget nor easily forgive a failure of that kind by this Parliament. As regards this terrorism Bill and any additions to it, we in Parliament here and in the other place must at some stage have our day and have our say.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, we must have this clause because it will lend a sense of urgency to the Government in bringing forward legislation which we can properly consider and indeed agree with. However, like the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, who has just spoken, I am concerned about the parliamentary process. I understand that the Commons will have only three hours to consider all the major amendments that we have made to the Bill so far, including the particular amendment that we are discussing. If that is
 
8 Mar 2005 : Column 659
 
so, it is monstrous that the House of Commons should be expected to consider the very substantial amendments that have been made here in such a short time.

Far from being able to discuss these amendments, there will hardly be time for the Minister to explain what they are about. All that Members of the House of Commons will have before them is what the Ministers say is before them. The Members of Parliament will have little or no opportunity to discuss the amendments and then they will have to vote without having discussed them. That is a monstrous situation. Indeed, it is a situation that should not exist in any democratic country.

I make this plea—and I hope that all other noble Lords will also make it—to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor. Will he go to the Commons to meet the Minister and, if necessary Prime Minister, to see whether the House of Commons—the elected House, the representatives of the people—can be given proper time, even if they have to go through the night, to consider all these vital amendments that have properly been made to the Bill in this House?

Lord Dubs: My Lords, I should declare an interest as a former chair of Liberty and, indeed, as a present member of Liberty. By the way, I should warn the office of Liberty to expect a large number of applications from members of the Conservative Party to join—and they will be welcome.

To be serious, I support the idea of a sunset clause, but I cannot see that November is a realistic date. It is simply putting pressure on the workings of government to deliver new legislation in a timetable that is unrealistic. I cannot go along with that. If my noble friend on the Front Bench cares to think about it, maybe he could come back and offer a much later date for a sunset clause to give the Government time to develop the legislation and have pre-legislative scrutiny so that both Houses of Parliament could then consider it.

That would be a sensible way forward, but I cannot support the November deadline. Everyone in this House knows that it is an unrealistic date. It just does not make any sense at all and I do not think that we can support it. My noble friend on the Front Bench might consider offering a later date at Third Reading so that we can then have a sensible period of time to develop new legislation.

Earl Ferrers: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Plant, made a penetrating observation when he said that one of the reasons for delaying the implementation beyond November is that private sector companies would have to be involved and that contracts would have to be drawn up and signed. That was a surprising piece of information. Will the noble Baroness give an assurance that private companies will not be involved?

Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, I think that the noble Earl is saying Belmarsh today and Securicor tomorrow. I wish to make it clear from these Benches
 
8 Mar 2005 : Column 660
 
that there is nothing that I can add to the eloquence of my noble friend Lady Williams of Crosby, but we support this amendment entirely as it is drafted—with the date that is drafted.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I will deal first with the comments of the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, and my noble friend Lord Plant about the contracting out provisions, as I will refer to them. When those comments were first made by my noble friend Lord Plant, many in the House will have noticed the alarm and disbelief written large on my face. The whole basis of this Bill is that we are dealing with information of the highest possible sensitivity and it is of the utmost importance that information should be entrusted only to those who can be guaranteed not to relay—whether advertently or inadvertently—that information to those who might put this country and our citizens at risk. That remains the case.

However, light dawned when I came to consider the provisions that must be put in place in relation to electronic monitoring or tagging. The tagging procedures in relation to those who are made subject to a tagging order are carried out by contractors outwith Her Majesty's service. However, I assure your Lordships that the advice upon which we rely is not contracted out: it remains the advice received from the security services and indeed the police.

I would first like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, for the kind words that he directed to what I had to say. However, I sup with a long spoon when it comes to those compliments because I know that the noble Lord intends by so saying to say, "Disregard what the noble Baroness says on the matter because like a siren she will lure you on to the rocks". If only I had that ability.

So I will stick to the position where we are and return to the issues on which we agree. We agree that the orders that we are contemplating can be contemplated only in relation to a situation that arises in extremis. Although there is a small cadre of notable exceptions who dissent—the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, and on my Benches my noble friend Lady Kennedy and others—the Opposition and Liberal Democrat Front Benches agree that we need control orders in some form. That idea appears to be accepted.

It is accepted too that this country is in danger and subject to a threat. All of us in looking at the provisions are bearing that in mind, even where we may disagree. I agree too with the comments made by my noble friend Lady Hayman that there is much about which we do and can—and I hope we will, in the long term—agree.

It is generally accepted that November—if we were to have a sunset clause—would at the least be a challenging if not impossibly impracticable date for all the reasons that many noble Lords, not least my noble friends Lord Clinton-Davis, Lord Harris and Lord Plant and others on opposite Benches have outlined.

It is also correct that the Government have accepted that a review of the provisions is merited; reviews are now contained in Clause 13. I accept that the House's
 
8 Mar 2005 : Column 661
 
view as currently expressed in the debate urges the Government to go further by way of review. The reviews we have outlined in those provisions are the three-monthly report, the yearly report and the work of the identified reviewer. The Government have heard the House say that that does not go far enough and we need further and deeper review.

I take too the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, and others, that members of the other place have not had as much opportunity to have their say as your Lordships. I take into consideration that the timeframe for the other place will therefore be limited. However, I invite your Lordships to bear in mind that there has been proper interest in the debates that have taken place in your Lordships' House. Indeed, your Lordships could not have failed to have noticed a number of Members from the other place who have with due diligence come to listen in person to what your Lordships have said.

Your Lordships can be assured that the content of the debates that have taken place in this House has been given the most anxious scrutiny by all of those who have come to deal with them. It is anticipated today that after Third Reading we will send the Bill back to the other place for further consideration. That will not only be consideration for the amendments but an opportunity to consider further the comments made by noble Lords—not least those made so ably by my noble friend Lady Hayman—about a different way forward.

My noble friend talked about an annual review and other provisions. I am not in a position at this stage to say anything that would give your Lordships an assurance that the Government can proffer a sunset clause. However, the Government will continue to consider these debates, together with all the debates we had yesterday; and the other place will also come to consider those matters again.

5.15 p.m.

---