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Baroness Hayman: My Lords, before my noble friend sits down, I am grateful to her for mentioning what I said but accuracy is important here. She talked about a review: I talked about renewal. My bottom line is not just the opportunity but the necessity for both Houses of Parliament to consider formally whether such legislation should continue to be in place. That is different from a review and a debate on the report on the review.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I hear what my noble friend says on that matter and I accept as she indicates that there is a difference between the two. But there is also an issue with which we should seriously grapple. We have spoken at length in the past couple of days about the possibility—nay, the necessity—of looking more keenly at provisions that could be brought forward in another Bill in relation to acts preparatory to terrorism. That is likely to take time. I do not want to repeat all the things I said yesterday, but your Lordships will recall that we went through the chronology.
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I am conscious that that which seems palatable when considering Part 4 becomes less palatable when we are considering control orders. When we come to consider acts preparatory I reasonably anticipate that that will appear slightly less palatable than it may now. Those are difficult issues with which we will have to deal.
I concur with those who say that we do not wish to be in a position similar to that in which we find ourselves now, being obliged to consider a sunset clause in relation to this Bill that will prematurely interrupt proper consideration in the long term.
Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, if my noble friend were to go slightly further and say that by February or March a sunset clause would be considered, I hope that the House would accept that. At the moment we have nothing whatever to offer.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I accept and I hope that the House accepts that the Government are giving all these matters full consideration and will continue to do so. I am not in a position to say to my noble friend that the Government agree in relation to February or March, not least because we have come to the view that an arbitrary sunset clause would cause some difficulty because we do not know the precise timetable that would be necessary.
I hear keenly what my noble friend Lady Hayman says in relation to a renewal, which would enable a debate and a vote to take place. All I can say is that we hear that clearly. We do not believe that it is likely that the need for control orders will be extinguished in its entirety for all the reasons that we have debated. The majority of your Lordships have accepted that there will remain a small cadre of individuals who will not be able to go through the normal process of criminal prosecution because of the nature and quality of the evidence on which such a prosecution would have to rely. We heard some very powerful speeches last night from the noble Baronesses, Lady Park and Lady Ramsay, on the reasons why that is so.
I urge noble Lords not to provide in this Bill an arbitrary cut-off date—an arbitrary sunset clause—of 30 November, but to allow this Bill, and the review provisions contained in it, to stand. There will obviously be further consideration in the other place. If it is appropriate, this House will undoubtedly have an opportunity to consider that sunset clause again.
Lord Kingsland: My Lords, this matter has been very fully debated for the second time in 24 hours; so I can be extremely terse in my response. There are two issues for your Lordships. The first is, should there be a sunset clause at all? The second is, if so, when should it bite? On the first issue, the noble Baroness has not been prepared to give an undertaking that in another place the Government will introduce a sunset clause. So it is absolutely clear that if we do not put on to the statute book the principle of a sunset clause today, it will be dead.
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The merits of the principle have already been extremely well expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, and many others. It seems to me extraordinary that the Government are asking for an indefinite suspension of habeas corpus without regularly coming back to Parliament. That is all that needs to be said about the principle. I hope it is unimaginable that your Lordships would accept the Government's position in that respect.
As regards the question of timing, if we do pass a sunset clause it is always then open to the Government to alter the length of time in another place and then come back to us. So at the end of the day the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and the noble Lord, Clinton-Davis, may well both have their cake and eat it on this matter. It so happens, I believe, that the November date is absolutely the right one.
A long time ago the very great American songwriter, Richard Rodgers, wrote songs with the equally great librettist, Lorenz Hart. An admiring lady asked Richard Rodgers one day, "What is the source of your inspiration, Mr Rodgers? Is it your music or is it Mr Hart's wonderful lyrics?" He replied, "No, madam, it is the arrival of the monthly rent demand". Look at it this way. The November date is the monthly rent demand. It will concentrate the Government's mind like nothing else. I wish to test the opinion of the House.
5.23 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 16) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 297; Not-Contents, 110.
Ackner, L.
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alliance, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Astor of Hever, L.
Avebury, L.
Bagri, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Bell, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Bowness, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Brennan, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Bridges, L.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Broers, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Cameron of Dillington, L.
Cameron of Lochbroom, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carrington, L.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chadlington, L.
Chan, L.
Chelmsford, Bp.
Chorley, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Courtown, E.
Cox, B.
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Croham, L.
Cuckney, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
David, B.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
D'Souza, B.
Dundee, E.
Dykes, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Fearn, L.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Garden, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Glasgow, E.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goschen, V.
Greaves, L.
Greengross, B.
Greenway, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of High Cross, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Hayman, B.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Home, E.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Hylton, L.
Inglewood, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Joffe, L.
Judd, L.
Kalms, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lewis of Newnham, L.
Lindsay, E.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Listowel, E.
Liverpool, Bp.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Lucas, L.
Ludford, B.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Macfarlane of Bearsden, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar, C.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
Michie of Gallanach, B.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Moran, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Moser, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Neill of Bladen, L.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Northbourne, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Cathain, B.
O'Neill of Bengarve, B.
Onslow, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Oxford, Bp.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Parkinson, L.
Patten, L.
Paul, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Peston, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Portsmouth, Bp.
Prior, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Quirk, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Richardson of Calow, B.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogan, L.
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Saatchi, L.
Sainsbury of Preston Candover, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Sandwich, E.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selsdon, L.
Sewel, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheldon, L.
Sheppard of Didgemere, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skidelsky, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Steinberg, L.
Stern, B.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Sutherland of Houndwood, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Tebbit, L.
Tenby, V.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gresford, L. [Teller]
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tombs, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Ullswater, V.
Vallance of Tummel, L.
Vincent of Coleshill, L.
Vinson, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warnock, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Wilson of Tillyorn, L.
Windlesham, L.
Winston, L.
Wolfson, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President of the Council)
Andrews, B.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bhattacharyya, L.
Billingham, B.
Borrie, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Carter of Coles, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Condon, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dearing, L.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Drayson, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Filkin, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Gale, B.
Giddens, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Brookwood, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haworth, L.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Leitch, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
McDonagh, B.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Marsh, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Maxton, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
Parekh, L.
Pendry, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Powell of Bayswater, L.
Prosser, B.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Simon, V.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Snape, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Warner, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.
Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.
8 Mar 2005 : Column 666
5.38 p.m.
Lord Kingsland moved Amendment No. 17:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
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