| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Lord Kingsland moved Amendment No. 18:
(1) The Secretary of State shall appoint a committee to conduct a review of the operation of this Act.
(a) the Prime Minister;
(b) the Leader of the Opposition in the House of Commons;
(c) the Leader of the Liberal Democrats in the House of Commons;
(d) the Convenor of the Crossbench peers in the House of Lords;
(e) the Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales.
(a) not earlier than the end of four months beginning with the day on which this Act is passed; and
(b) not later than the end of eight months beginning with the day on which this Act is passed.
(6) The Secretary of State shall lay a copy of the report before Parliament as soon as is reasonably practicable.
8 Mar 2005 : Column 667
The noble Lord said: My Lords, Amendment No. 18 appears in a different group from Amendments Nos. 16, 17 and 20, but I have already spoken to its substance and about its relationship to the sunset clause. In my submission, the Privy Council committee is a crucial component of the sunset clause regime. I beg to move.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, we spoke about this in part in the last group. We have already indicated that we think these proposals are covered by provisions in the Bill. Amendment No. 18 creates a committee of Privy Counsellors to review the operation of the Act and report on it after four months and eight months. It would provide that the reports carried out by the committee created under Amendment No. 18 would consider the operational effectiveness of the legislation.
I have already set out that we believe in principle that the provisions in Clauses 18 and 19 are unnecessary for the reasons I have already given, because of the scheme already proposed by the Bill. In addition to that, there are already committees of the House with a remit in this area, including the Home Affairs Committee and the Joint Committee on Human Rights. Both have shown, and will undoubtedly continue to show, an active interest in the counter-terrorism legislation. There will therefore be review mechanisms in place, and an opportunity to consider the results. We believe these provisions provide an appropriate means of keeping the provisions under regular scrutiny.
I take account of the comments made by all noble Lords during the last debate, and I add those few comments in addition to explain why the Government feel this current position is sustainable.
Lord Kingsland: My Lords, this matter has already been substantially debated by your Lordships. I am most grateful to the Minister for what she has just said. As she is well aware, I totally disagree with her. In these circumstances, I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Kingsland moved Amendment No. 19:
(1) A report under section (Review of Act) must consider the operation and effectiveness of the Act as a whole and any issues arising from the operation of individual control orders, and may make such recommendations as the committee sees fit including recommendations for future legislation.
(2) Any recommendation made under subsection (1) shall not affect the operation of section (Limitation)."
On Question, amendment agreed to.
8 Mar 2005 : Column 668
Lord Kingsland moved Amendment No. 20:
This Act and any order made under it shall by virtue of this section cease to have effect on 30th November 2005."
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 14 [General interpretation]:
Baroness Hayman moved Amendment No. 21:
"(za) in relation to the preliminary hearing of proceedings relating to a control order means—
(i) in England and Wales, the senior district judge (chief magistrate) or another district judge (magistrates' courts) designated by him for the purposes of the Act;
(ii) in Scotland, the Sheriff of Lothian and Borders;
(iii) in Northern Ireland, such county court judge or resident magistrate as is designated by the Lord Chancellor."
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I hesitate to say at this stage of our proceedings that the purpose of these amendments is to probe the Government. They are, however, to enable the House to have a brief debate on the proposal put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, on Second Reading.
As the House is aware, the noble Lord was the reviewer of the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001. He accepts the need for control orders in a minimum number of cases, as I do myself. In his contribution on Second Reading he suggested a possible solution to the problem of how to bring in an element of judicial process to the initial making of the order before an appeal hearing. That could be appropriately addressed, he said, by putting that responsibility on the district judge.
The noble Lord pointed out that there is already a cadre of such judges who undertake responsibilities in extradition cases, for example, often in ex parte hearings, and certainly in hearings on renewal of detention for terrorist suspects being held on suspicion under Section 41 of the Terrorism Act 2000, where there are applications to extend the period of time for which they are held from the initial 48 hours to up to 14 days.
The attraction this proposal has for me is that we have heard from senior judges in this House, and elsewhere, that there is concern about the involvement of the High Court in two roles in this process; first, in the initial making of the order, and then in the review process. The proposal would restore the natural hierarchy of judicial decision-making, so that the initial decision was made by the judge at district level. We have now put into the framework of the Bill that, after the preliminary hearing, it will be normal procedure for the full review then to go to an appeal hearing at the High Court.
The proposal is put forward, as has been everything I have tried to put forward, in a way that seeks consensus. I am trying to explore with both the House and the Government whether this process, which would now include the non-derogating orders, would
8 Mar 2005 : Column 669
be appropriate for those non-derogating orders, or, as my amendment says, for all orders. At the moment, we are dealing with a regime that treats all orders in the same way. I hope that, although I have spoken briefly, the import of these amendments is clear to the House, and I would be interested to hear responses to them. I beg to move.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine: My Lords, I too have put my name to this amendment, and wish to speak briefly to it. In doing so, I declare membership of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, and add that I concur completely with the committee's report, which was produced in difficult circumstances in great haste last week.
We have listened to the arguments carefully. Many of us are concerned by the divergence from due process, albeit in circumstances where we are told that there is a serious and substantial threat to the life of the nation. My position, instinctively and intellectually, is, like many others, to seek to insert judicial process and oversight in every clause. However, we hear from the Benches opposite of the need, in rare circumstances, to act speedily. Many of us were here last Thursday when, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, has already mentioned, my noble friend Lord Carlile of Berriew sought to assist us with a more workable and practical way to deal with the initial stages where speed is required.
The position set out in the amendment would not only satisfy the arguments of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, but would also to some extent satisfy the Joint Committee on Human Rights. The committee said in its report, which was published last Friday, that it was not persuaded that there was no way in the present legal framework to deal with these issues. It said:
"If the security services or police are in possession of information suggesting that a person is involved in an imminent terrorist attack, there is already a power to arrest him on suspicion of involvement in an offence under the Terrorism Act 2000, and he can then be detained for up to 14 days without charge, during which time investigations can be carried out, evidence can be gathered and the person can be brought to court to determine whether a control order should be made pending the outcome of the criminal investigation".
In the light of the Government's opposition to the clauses that draw in judicial oversight across the board, these amendments seek to draw on a process that is already in place in the Terrorism Act 2000, and that is at least tried and tested.
| Next Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |