---

"( ) The rules of court must comply with the United Kingdom's obligations under Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights."

The noble Lord said: My Lords, in the previous debate on Amendment No. 28 I said everything that I needed to say about Amendment No. 28A; in particular, the government scheme set out in paragraph 4 to the schedule falls below the standards that we would expect from Article 6 of the convention. At the same time, the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, was partial.

In our view, the right approach is to leave it to the Lord Chief Justice to make the rules; for the Lord Chief Justice to bring the rules to your Lordships' House; and for your Lordships' House to consider them under the affirmative resolution procedure which I understand the noble and learned Lord has said he would agree to. I beg to move.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, we on these Benches support the amendment. We have some
 
8 Mar 2005 : Column 698
 
regrets that Her Majesty's loyal Opposition were unable to support the proposal spelt out in detail in the previous amendment, but we bear them no grudge.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I would seriously ask the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, and the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, to think for a moment. The reason why paragraph 4 is in that form is to make it clear that whoever makes the rules has the power to include in them the special advocate procedure. It places the matter beyond doubt, because it would be unusual for rules of the High Court to permit that unusual procedure unless there was clear statutory authority.

I respectfully suggest to the noble Lords, Lord Kingsland and Lord Thomas of Gresford, that I will agree to write in the Bill that the provision has to comply with Article 6 if the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, does not move to delete the vital bits of paragraph 4 that provide for a fair procedure; in effect, leave paragraph 4 as it is and I will write Article 6 compliance in the Bill. That is a sensible way forward. I earnestly ask noble Lords to consider sensibly what would be a fair procedure.

Lord Kingsland: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his response; and in particular for his suggestion, at an earlier stage, that he would be inclined to withdraw paragraph 4(3)(a). Nevertheless, I am sorry to say that I feel compelled to press my amendment. The amendment will not in any way prevent the Lord Chief Justice, after consultation with the Lord Chancellor, from having a system such as the noble and learned Lord suggested.

We entirely accept that there are circumstances in which the sources of evidence and the techniques by which evidence is gained need to be protected. There is nothing to prevent the Lord Chief Justice putting that in his rules. If there is anything that would prevent him it could only be the fact that they did not comply with Article 6. If they did not comply with Article 6, the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor would not be able to put it in the rules himself, since he, himself, has accepted that the rules have to comply with Article 6. With great respect to the noble and learned Lord, his argument against this sensible proposal carries no weight. I wish to test the House's opinion.

7.44 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 28A) shall be agreed to?

*Their Lordships divided: Contents, 173; Not-Contents, 110.

Division No. 6

CONTENTS
Addington, L.
Alliance, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Barker, B.
Blackwell, L.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Bowness, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Chadlington, L.
Chester, Bp.
Chorley, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Cox, B.
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
D'Souza, B.
Dundee, E.
Dykes, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elton, L.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Fearn, L.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Garden, L.
Geddes, L.
Glasgow, E.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L. [Teller]
Goschen, V.
Greaves, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of High Cross, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Haskins, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Inglewood, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Joffe, L.
Judd, L.
Kalms, L.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Lucas, L.
Ludford, B.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar, C.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
Michie of Gallanach, B.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Montrose, D.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Oxford, Bp.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Plumb, L.
Portsmouth, Bp.
Prior, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selsdon, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheppard of Didgemere, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stern, B.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Swinfen, L.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trumpington, B.
Turner of Camden, B.
Ullswater, V.
Vallance of Tummel,L.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Windlesham, L.

NOT-CONTENTS
Acton, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President of the Council)
Ampthill, L.
Andrews, B.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Carter of Coles, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Brookwood, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grantchester, L.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Jones, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Leitch, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Maxton, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Pendry, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Snape, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Warner, L.
Whitty, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

 
8 Mar 2005 : Column 700
 

[*The Tellers for the Contents reported 173 votes; the Clerks recorded 172 names.]

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

7.55 p.m.

[Amendment No. 29 not moved.]
 
8 Mar 2005 : Column 701
 

---