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Noble Lords: Hear, hear!

Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, said that he was absolutely baffled and could not understand how people could accept reasonable suspicion as a ground for non-derogated orders and a higher burden of proof for the higher ones, and he quoted the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, and the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, as saying that.

As a non-lawyer, having listened very carefully to all this, I just say that I cannot understand why they cannot understand the difference between those two matters. It seems to me perfectly logical that the most severe order, which will only be gone for in the most severe cases and therefore also presumably has the strongest and most solid evidence on which to take that decision, is the one where you have the evidence that you can produce, and that in the slightly less serious but still very worrying cases for which you would want a non-derogated order, you may not have exactly the same kind of solidity of evidence but you would in fact go ahead and have a reasonable suspicion case.

The second point that I would like to make is—

Noble Lords: Order!

Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale: My Lords, this is on the amendment.

Lord Elton: My Lords, permit me to read paragraph 4.18 of the Companion:

Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale: My Lords, in that case, will the Minister agree? I will not go into the question of the Secretary of State and the judge now, because I have to tell the House right away that I would not have given way from the original positions. I do not think that a judge should make these decisions. I think that they should be made by a Secretary of State. Would he further agree that there is no reason why this could not be the same kind of parallel as in the Interception of Communications Act, where the Secretary of State signs and the judge then comes in on review? Would he not agree—

Noble Lords: Order!

The Earl of Onslow: My Lords, the Leader of the House is our servant and should ensure that the House functions properly. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Ramsay, feels strongly about this matter, but please, dear Leader, as they say in certain other places, help us to maintain order.

The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Amos): My Lords, I totally agree with that. However, the House needs to adopt a degree of consistency in the
 
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way in which it treats Members who seek to make points on this matter. We do not want to curtail the debate on this issue, because there is very strong feeling in the House about it. However, I entirely agree with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Elton, that Members are permitted to make only very brief interventions after the Minister has spoken and before the Minister sits down. That convention has been broken across the Chamber today in the time that I have been sitting here. If the House is to behave appropriately, I would suggest that we apply our conventions in a consistent way across the House.

Noble Lords: Hear, hear!

Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, I feel that we should bring this debate to a close. I want to say only a brief word on the standard of proof. It seems to me that the Government risk real injustice when they seek to act on reasonable suspicion. It almost inevitably follows that people will have restrictions on their liberty when they are innocent. I ask your Lordships to recall the problems that we have had in Northern Ireland as a result of miscarriages of justice that have taken place on the mainland of England when the standard of proof was "beyond reasonable doubt" but nevertheless there were miscarriages of justice.

That is all I wish to say and I seek to test the opinion of the House on my amendment.

12.26 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. A1) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 214; Not-Contents, 125.


Division No. 1


CONTENTS

Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Ashcroft, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Avebury, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Ballyedmond, L.
Bell, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Bridges, L.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Cameron of Lochbroom, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carrington, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chorley, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Cobbold, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Cuckney, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Dykes, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Emerton, B.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Fearn, L.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Garden, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Glasgow, E.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Greaves, L.
Greengross, B.
Greenway, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Home, E.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Joffe, L.
Judd, L.
Kalms, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Ludford, B.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Michie of Gallanach, B.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Moore of Wolvercote, L.
Moran, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Cathain, B.
O'Neill of Bengarve, B.
Onslow, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Quinton, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Roper, L. [Teller]
Rotherwick, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Saatchi, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandwich, E.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selborne, E.
Selkirk of Douglas, L.
Selsdon, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheldon, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Southwell, Bp.
Stern, B.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Tenby, V.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Ullswater, V.
Vallance of Tummel, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Windlesham, L.
Wolfson, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President of the Council)
Andrews, B.
Armstrong of Ilminster, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhattacharyya, L.
Billingham, B.
Blood, B.
Borrie, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dearing, L.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Brookwood, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
Kerr of Kinlochard, L.
Kilclooney, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Layard, L.
Leitch, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
Northbourne, L.
Palmer, L.
Patel, L.
Pendry, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Richardson of Calow, B.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Simon, V.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Thornton, B.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Vincent of Coleshill, L.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Warner, L.
Waverley, V.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Winston, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.


Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.


 
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On Question, Motion, as amended, agreed to.
 
10 Mar 2005 : Column 877
 

12.38 p.m.


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