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Earl Ferrers: My Lords, will the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor help me a little? We all accept the primacy of another place, and the fact that your Lordships usually have to agree to its views. What worries me is that, if the Government could have moved and accepted the sunset clause, that would have enabled them to get their Bill. What also worries me is that the Bill the Commons have had to consider is totally different from what it was when it left another place, and they have only had about three hours to consider it. That is bad. If the noble and learned Lord were able to go thus far and say "All right, we will agree a sunset clause", another place would be able to consider the Bill in the fullness of time and with its proper jurisdiction, as opposed simply to agreeing to what has been passed down from your Lordships' House to the Commons.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, this House suggested pre-judicial scrutiny before a non-derogating order was made, and the House of Commons accepted that. This House suggested certification to ensure that prosecution was properly considered before an order was made, and the other House accepted it. This House suggested different provisions in relation to the rules. The Commons accepted that as well. The noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, is saying "There is one more thing we want, namely a sunset clause". The House of Commons has considered that on two separate occasions, and has said no.
 
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We cannot say that the House of Commons has not listened to what has been said. We must accept that we cannot have everything we ask for. Although the House of Commons has given 80 per cent of what the noble Earl has asked for, it is neither realistic nor sensible to say that 100 per cent is required in every case. There must be a decision, and, until this moment, the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, has always accepted that the decision is with the Commons.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Desai, said that "history is hooey". What does that say for the people who have fought and died for freedom, liberty and the rule of law in this country?

We accept the need for control orders, as I said at length this morning. We say that those orders should be granted by a judge in a proper judicial process, with all the safeguards of a fair trial that the common law of this country has built into its proceedings? The Government are seeking to turn back history here—a proud history—and to introduce something that the country has not seen since the middle of the 18th century. That is not acceptable, and I beg to seek the opinion of the House.

10.54 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (A1) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 182; Not-Contents, 111.


Division No. 6


CONTENTS

Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alliance, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Ashcroft, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Avebury, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bell, L.
Blackwell, L.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Bowness, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Clement-Jones, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Craigavon, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Dykes, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Fearn, L.
Ferrers, E.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Freyberg, L.
Garden, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Greaves, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Home, E.
Hooper, B.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Kalms, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Lucas, L.
Ludford, B.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Michie of Gallanach, B.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Onslow, E.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogan, L.
Roper, L. [Teller]
Rotherwick, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Saatchi, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selborne, E.
Selkirk of Douglas, L.
Selsdon, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Sterling of Plaistow, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Sutherland of Houndwood, L.
Taverne, L.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trumpington, B.
Ullswater, V.
Vallance of Tummel, L.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Waldegrave of North Hill, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Windlesham, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Alli, L.
Andrews, B.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Carter of Coles, L.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Donoughue, L.
Drayson, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Brookwood, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greengross, B.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Layard, L.
Leitch, L.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Lockwood, B.
McDonagh, B.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Pendry, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Simon, V.
Snape, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Thomas of Macclesfield, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Warner, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.


Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.


 
10 Mar 2005 : Column 1011
 

Motion, as amended, agreed to.

11 p.m.


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