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Division No. 11


CONTENTS

Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alliance, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Ashcroft, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Avebury, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barker, B.
Bell, L.
Blackwell, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Clement-Jones, L.
Cobbold, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
D'Souza, B.
Dykes, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elton, L.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Ferrers, E.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Freyberg, L.
Garden, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Greaves, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Home, E.
Hooper, B.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Joffe, L.
Kalms, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Lucas, L.
Ludford, B.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mancroft, L.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Michie of Gallanach, B.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Naseby, L.
Neill of Bladen, L.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Cathain, B.
O'Neill of Bengarve, B.
Onslow, E.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rennard, L.
Richardson of Calow, B.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rogan, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Saatchi, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selkirk of Douglas, L.
Selsdon, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheldon, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Sterling of Plaistow, L.
Stern, B.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Tanlaw, L.
Taverne, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L. [Teller]
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Ullswater, V.
Vallance of Tummel, L.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Waldegrave of North Hill, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.

NOT-CONTENTS

Alli, L.
Andrews, B.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Carter of Coles, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Drayson, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Gale, B.
Giddens, L.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Brookwood, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Henig, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Jones, L.
Layard, L.
Leitch, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
McDonagh, B.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Simon, V.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Thomas of Macclesfield, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Warner, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Winston, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.


Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.


 
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Motion, as amended, agreed to.
 
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5.55 a.m.

Lord Grocott: My Lords, it may help the House if I repeat what I said a few hours ago. It takes a minimum of four hours to go through the next round, for the papers to be dealt with and sent to the other end. Those in the other place will then make their decision and the Bill will return to this House. We shall not resume before 10.30 a.m. It will not be sooner than 10.30, but if it is later, messages will be put on the annunciator.

I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

[The Sitting was suspended from 5.56 to 11.40 a.m.]

COMMONS AMENDMENTS AND REASONS

[The page and line refer to HL Bill 34 as first printed for the Lords.]

A message was brought from the Commons, That they propose certain amendments in lieu to the Prevention of Terrorism Bill, to which they desire the agreement of your Lordships; they do not insist on certain amendments in lieu disagreed to by your Lordships; they insist on certain of their amendments in lieu; they insist on certain of their amendments to Lords amendments disagreed to by your Lordships; they insist on their disagreement to certain other Lords amendments and Lords amendments in lieu; they insist on certain other amendments to words to be restored to the Bill.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons reasons and amendments be considered forthwith.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

MOTION A

Lord Falconer of Thoroton rose to move, Motion A, that this House do not insist on its disagreement with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 1A and 1B to Lords Amendment No. 1; do not insist on its Amendments Nos. 37Q to 37T in lieu of Lords Amendment No. 8; do not insist on its insistence on Lords Amendments Nos. 12, 13, 15, 17, 22, 28 and 37 in respect of which the Commons have insisted on their disagreement and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 37A to 37C and 37E to 37O in lieu of those Lords amendments; do not insist on its disagreement with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 17H to 17M to the words restored to the Bill by the Commons insistence on their disagreement to Lords Amendment No. 17; and do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 37X in lieu.

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, we meet again, over 24 hours after this sitting in this House started. Before I say anything else, may I join the whole House in thanking the staff and officers of this House for the fantastic service that we have received in what has been a very interesting but difficult 24 hours?
 
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The debate on the issues that remain in play appears to have moved in two respects. The Conservatives have indicated that they are no longer holding out for a Privy Counsellor committee and are instead content with an independent reviewer. The Liberal Democrats are content with a reference to the chief officer of police rather than the DPP.

So, the burden of proof and the sunset clause remain in issue. That is after a series of concessions that have rightly been made to this House throughout the passage of the Bill. A judge has been put in at the beginning of the process. The case has to be considered in detail inter partes within seven days. A requirement has been put in to ensure that there is an independent reviewer's report and that it will be available in good time for an annual review. There is now a requirement on the face of the Bill to confirm that prosecution is not possible. There are arrangements for annual renewal. There is a new procedure to confirm the rules of court. There are steps to ensure an even wider role for the independent reviewer. Detail of the rules has been changed to ensure that exculpatory material must be made available in every case.

These are good, solid concessions, which improve the Bill. It has been a good result for this House. Our views are being respected and given effect to. But our ability to change legislation brings with it responsibility. That responsibility is from the unelected House to the other place. Whatever our views, ultimately we have to bow to the other place. We bow, believing this House to be right because that is what the majority voted for at an earlier stage in the process, but we bow nevertheless, because of the primacy of the Commons. Whatever we say, we cannot seek to arrogate to ourselves the final decision—for example, because we believe, as the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, says, that the Members in another place are simply "temporary politicians" or because, as the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, said yesterday, the electoral system does not justify us giving the respect that we should to the other place.

There is no graver issue on which the responsibility of this House should be demonstrated than anti-terrorism. We have heard the arguments again and again about the sunset clause. I believe that the majority of both Houses of Parliament believe that control orders are necessary. Both Front Benches say so. Almost everybody who has intervened in the debate here takes that view. The security services believe that the threat will continue for the foreseeable future. We cannot afford to be without terrorist legislation. So we cannot accept the sunset clause; nor should we. That is the wrong thing to do. We have thought about this carefully and we have done so each time the Lords has sent the matter back to the Commons.

Let me read to the House the words of a former Home Secretary—not a Labour Home Secretary and not a Home Secretary long deceased but a Home Secretary
 
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who, I am happy to say, is here with us this very morning. In the Queen's Speech debate in November 1989, the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, said:

I shall go on with the quote—it is, I should say, a splendid quote—from the noble Lord, Lord Waddington. He continued:

The time has come—

11.45 a.m.


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