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Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate: My Lords, I start by welcoming the Bill in principle. Crime and policing are second only to anti-terrorism in the important work being done by the Government to protect the public. I declare an interest as one who joined the police more than 40 years ago. The 1960s were a
 
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different era from the one we inhabit today. Indeed, when I joined we had a police force and a postal service, whereas now we have a police service and a Parcel Force. I suppose that that must tell us something.

To be more serious, we live in a world which is becoming smaller. A criminal act can be committed in one country and the perpetrators can be at the other side of the world within hours. Identity theft is becoming more and more prevalent and the public have a right to demand a response by the authorities.

It is absolutely crucial therefore that the police and other law enforcement agencies are organised to operate in modern times with all the powers and technology that is available. This Bill sets out to achieve that by establishing the Serious Organised Crime Agency which will bring together officers of the National Crime Squad and the National Criminal Intelligence Service, which includes the investigative arms of Customs and Excise and the Immigration Service.

My noble friend the Minister is aware that there are serious concerns about the terms and conditions of the police staff transferring to SOCA to such an extent that the Police Federation has recommended to its members that they do not join the new organisation until they are satisfied with the terms and conditions of employment. It is absolutely essential that this new important organisation gets off on the right footing. Can the Minister reassure the House that agreement is being actively pursued because co-operation between the new agency and the police is critical?

I am satisfied that the Minister has answered the point about the agents not being police officers. The police are proud of the office of constable, which, as your Lordships know, is independent of the Executive and answerable only to the law. A chief constable cannot be ordered to do this or that and cannot be removed on a political whim, as can happen in the United States, where I spent some time training with the FBI.

Another advantage of using sworn police officers is that they cannot take industrial action. That point has been touched on already. It last occurred in 1919, after which it was outlawed. What safeguards are there in relation to the new agents? Will they be allowed to join a trade union, as is being suggested with the new civilian custody officers? If so, will there be a no-strike clause in the agreement? Will they have police powers or greater special powers such as those which are presently held by Customs and Excise?

Another issue is the question of complaints against the new agents. The police service is overseen by the new independent Police Complaints Commission. Can my noble friend assure the House that similar arrangements will be put in place with regard to these investigators who, like the police, will come into conflict with the public by the very nature of their job? Will there be a discipline code similar to that of police officers? These are not inconsequential issues.
 
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Going back to the central purpose of the Bill, it makes eminent sense to bring the national bodies dealing in criminal intelligence and national and international crime under one roof. I recall the problems in the United States with the different agencies competing with each other. On the ground, there was a myriad of law enforcement bodies vying for jurisdiction. Small village police departments competed with the county sheriff or the state troopers, challenged by the specialist departments in transport, universities, housing complexes and the like. There are literally thousands of different agencies with overlapping jurisdiction in the United States. In my view, this is a mess and leads to inefficiency. Thank God, we do not have that problem in the United Kingdom.

In the United States, we saw the competing interests at federal level following the 9/11 incident, with the Federal Bureau of Investigation working to the Department of Justice; the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Agency working to the Revenue; and of course the overarching Central Intelligence Agency—all failing to share and act on critical information that may have prevented the tragedy that occurred.

I recall President Bush recently being asked whether he intended to oversee all these different intelligence organisations by the appointment of an intelligence tsar. There is no truth in the suggestion that he replied in his own inimitable way, "No, it's far too important a job to be left to a Russian". I jest of course, and it is an important co-ordination job which has now been filled.

In conclusion, I address the civilianisation of the custody sergeant, which has resulted in a powerful campaign waged by the Police Federation against the loss of this important post. It is an important role and one that police sergeants do not always welcome. It requires the courage to take on senior officers, at times, to conform to the codes of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984.

My noble friend the Minister mentioned that it would be a matter for chief constables to appoint civilians to this role. She said that some chief constables were in favour of such appointments. The Police Review notified me that it had telephoned the various forces alleged to be in favour and all had denied that. I should be grateful if my noble friend could give me the names of those forces that agreed.

I have for many years been concerned that a regular police sergeant had to be taken from the streets to perform the task of custody officer. When it was introduced, it led to a considerable diminution of supervision on the streets. However, whether a civilian can fulfil that role with the same authority is arguable.

Perhaps I may make a constructive suggestion to the Minister. The Metropolitan Police used to have a separate rank of station sergeant. It was a rank between sergeant and inspector and was a well respected figure, exemplified by George Dixon, who many of your Lordships will remember on the television from his days in Dock Green. He must have been the only serving octogenarian police officer in the Met. He was the epitome of wisdom and experience—dare I say it, rather like Members of your Lordships' House.
 
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My point is that bringing back this rank of "station sergeant" or "custody sergeant" would solve the problem. Ordinary sergeants could be back out supervising on the streets, whereas the new rank of station sergeant could fulfil the important role required by the PACE Act, and he or she would still be a sworn officer. I ask the Minister to consider my proposal, which I am sure would find favour with the Police Federation.

In conclusion, I would emphasise the importance of taking the police service with you in implementing the provisions of this important and necessary Bill. I commend the Bill to the House.

Lord Soulsby of Swaffham Prior: My Lords, in concert with the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, I wish to address the part of the Bill concerned with animal research organisations. I declare an interest as a patron of the Fund for the Replacement of Animals in Medical Experiments—often referred to as FRAME.

This country has some of the most rigorous regulations concerning the use of animals in research. Recently, the Science and Technology Committee of this House examined in detail the use of animals for experimental purposes and concluded that such use was ethical. It also made a number of recommendations to enhance the public understanding of animal experimentation, including the setting up of a committee to promote further use of the alternatives to experimentation, generally called the three "Rs"—reduction, refinement and replacement. As the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, mentioned, he is the chair of this committee referred to as NC3Rs.

All experimentation using animals in this country is performed under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986. It is administered by the Home Office. It is a legal activity and as such must be protected against the unlawful activities of animal rights extremists. It is, to my mind and that of many others, extremely important that this Bill reaches the statute book, for the following reasons.

The Bill would ensure the progress of biomedical research in the search for and development of medicines and vaccines for the control and prevention of disease in man and his animals. So much of this requires the use of animals in research.

The Bill would protect the welfare of animals used in research. Regulation is far less rigorous overseas, which is where the activities of animal rights extremists could drive animal-based research. The direct action of extremists includes the so-called "liberation" of animals from animal holdings into environments that are completely foreign to them where they would have difficulty surviving, and the intimidation of veterinary practitioners who provide veterinary help and care to animal breeding establishments. Those practitioners may then not be available when animals fall ill.
 
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The passage of the Bill would protect the UK science base, which is world class and ranks in the highest echelons of scientific endeavours globally. It is necessary to protect that too. That research is worth more than £3 billion per year.

Those who would oppose the Bill will claim that adequate legislation already exists to deal with animal rights extremists. That is not the case. Intense harassment and intimidation can and does occur, directed against personnel working in research establishments, supply companies servicing such establishments, the banks that provide the financing, the children of employees as they go to school, and the wives of employees as they go to supermarkets. Indirect harassment occurs in telephone calls, e-mails and abusive letters.

As has been pointed out, while Clause 143 seeks to protect a broad spectrum of persons connected with animal research, it fails to make provision for charitable institutions that fund animal research. There are many such institutions, from large ones such as the Wellcome Trust, to small charities that are interested in forwarding animal research. My hope and expectation is that Clause 143 will be amended to include those charitable institutions.

Many will be aware of the continuing activity against organisations such as the Huntingdon research laboratory, Huntingdon Life Sciences, by the organisation known as SHAC—Stop Huntingdon Animal Cruelty. Huntingdon Life Sciences has been able to carry on despite the withdrawal of funding by certain banks. It has an animal facility in the United States to which SHAC has extended its activities. It is interesting to note that seven of SHAC's personnel face US domestic terrorism charges.

SPEAC—Stop Primate Experiments At Cambridge—has provided a further example of the cumulative effect of harassment and intimidation. Its activities have resulted in the decision of the University of Cambridge not to proceed with a primate laboratory facility that would have worked on some of the most disastrous neurological disorders of man—such as Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disorder, motor neurone disease and others.

The University of Oxford has now obtained an injunction against several of the animal rights organisations opposing its plan to build a research facility. That facility would involve experimentation on living animals. It was opposed by organisations such as SPEAC, SHAC and the Animal Liberation Front, all of which plead that they do not support violence or illegal acts on the part of their members. The record of these organisations totally belies that claim.

Extremists have been ruining the lives and livelihoods of people and local communities where animal experimentation takes place. They have hindered the progress of biomedical research and compromised the welfare of the very animals they purport to safeguard. There are very many people concerned with biomedical research who very much welcome this Bill.
 
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6.20 p.m.


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