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Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, he referred to taking religion out of the equation of our law. But is he aware that religion is out of the equation? Currently, Jews are protected only against racist incitement. I agree with what the noble Lord said, even though it was a bit disrespectful of the Law Lords. Sikhs are protected only on the grounds of their ethnicity. Religion is entirely out of the equation, apart from blasphemy.

The Earl of Selborne: My Lords, I suspect that my intervention will be rather more supportive of the Government than the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Desai, which I greatly enjoyed. I, like the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, and my noble friend Lord Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, will confine my remarks to the parts of the Bill that refer to redressing the damage and the dangers caused by animal extremists and the problems that they cause particularly to the biosciences and to those even loosely connected with research using live animals.

I refer to the excellent Select Committee on Scientific Procedures of which my noble friend Lord Soulsby is a member, chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton, which took place about two or three years ago. It reported on the evolution of regulation of animal experiments.

It has been noted earlier that there was the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986, which is the bedrock on which the present legislation is based. There has been increasing interest in the need to legislate, which has taken place in this House from time to time, led by advice from the Animal Procedures Committee. That is a body which includes a wide range of interests.

It is greatly to the credit of this country that we have the strongest regulation as regards animal experiments of any country. That is borne out in the Select Committee report. Paragraph 1.15 of the report states,

So it is not surprising that this committee and Parliament and the vast majority of people in this country conclude, according to the report,

But the problem is that we are a compassionate nation and that those who quite rightly lobby, protest and try to make their views quite legitimately known on animal welfare issues, very often give succour to those who have no intention of doing it legally and who have—as is quite clear from the evidence of what has happened at Oxford and Cambridge universities, the Wycombe Laboratory and many other places—
 
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flouted the law. If justification is required for the provisions in this Bill it is the failure of the present criminal jurisdiction to deal with these very effective extremist campaigns. It is the fact that in many ways they are setting the agenda, demonstrated by the need to legislate further in this Bill.

I refer to another report of the Select Committee on Science and Technology which appeared about four or five years ago. The committee was chaired by my noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding. The report was entitled Science and Society. It drew attention to the frequent lack of transparency and the need for a much better understanding of the benefits that society can derive from science, particularly in the pharmaceutical field and biosciences. The fact is that so many extremists appear to get away with harassment and criminal activity without being taken to task by people who would otherwise be expected to give support to upholding the law.

I quote once more from the Select Committee report on animals and scientific procedures. It said,

Since that committee reported the situation has got worse. Therefore, I wholeheartedly support the Government in bringing forward these measures. It is clearly quite unacceptable that people can be harassed and intimidated not just for being employed by the companies involved in research using live animals, but for supplying them or for being related to employees. The case history is now becoming long and extremely sinister.

The expression "co-ordinated home visits" is very sinister. Groups of people are targeted because of their connections with animal research. This Bill seeks to recognise the reality of what the visits mean. It is a very intimidating experience.

Because the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, and my noble friend Lord Soulsby have said with much greater authority than I can just how welcome these provisions are, and because every person who has spoken in the debate so far has referred to these clauses and welcomed them, including the spokesmen on the Front Bench, there is nothing more that I need say but to give the Government my wholehearted support.

Viscount Colville of Culross: My Lords, it will not surprise the House to hear that I want to speak about Schedule 10. First, I pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Bhatia to whom I always listen with very great respect when he says that there is a problem in relation to the Muslim community in this country. I believe that we were all persuaded by what he said and by the witnesses who came to the Select Committee to explain further what the problem was.

We have also had a great deal of wisdom from the highest level spoken about the law as regards this matter. I do not want to go over any of that again,
 
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particularly if we are to have amendments at Committee. But there is one point that has not been dealt with either in another place or here today. That is the workability of the proposed new offences in Schedule 10. The noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, made a point about that, as did the noble Lord, Lord Baker of Dorking. I want to explore with the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland, with reference to her experience of sitting as a recorder, how she thinks it will be handled. I do not think that it is at all easy.

In another place, the noble Baroness's honourable friend, Ms Blears, the Minister for Crime Reduction, Policing and Community Safety, explained what Articles 9 and 10 contain. She said:

That is all very well if one is operating at the stage where the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, used to operate in the High Court. It is not altogether the same in the Crown Court where these trials are to take place. They are serious offences and carry a maximum penalty of seven years, so I imagine that the Crown Court will be the venue.

Let us assume that there has been a complaint about incitement to religious hatred and let us suppose that the police have decided that the matter falls within the gap described by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury; that is, it is not covered by the common law of incitement and therefore something else must be done. The matter is sent to the Crown Prosecution Service, which considers the ordinary rules; whether it is in the public interest or whether there is more than a 50 per cent chance of obtaining a conviction. Presumably, the CPS must have a potential defendant. As the British National Party, among others, has shown itself acute in how to avoid criminal offences in this area, what would happen if the material that has been complained of came on the Internet from Holland? I doubt whether there would be a defendant within the jurisdiction.

Let us assume that that matter has been overcome and that there is a defendant and that the Attorney-General decides that the matter should go ahead. I am relieved that the noble and learned Lord will be dealing with this, because that will be an answer to the kind of point made by the noble Lord, Lord Desai, on intercept and inter-cult complaints, actions and private prosecutions. That will not happen because the noble and learned Lord will stop it.

The matter will then go to trial. I am not expecting the Minister to answer the case today, but I would like her to think about it. The matter has been placed in front of a jury who will have to decide, among other things, whether the expression that is complained about was within the realms of freedom of speech under Article 10, particularly whether Article 10.2, which allows a restriction of freedom of speech, will be applicable.
 
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The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, referred to a divisional court case called Norwood. It arose under Section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986 in which there is a defence available that it was reasonable in the circumstances. The district judge took that as a peg on which to hang a discussion about Article 10 and freedom of speech. He was upheld by the divisional court, which decided that he had been correct to convict and had properly taken account of the provisions of Article 10.

When I first saw this Bill as it was introduced into another place, I thought that the original provisions in Part III of the Public Order Act 1986, which talk about taking account of all relevant circumstances, might provide a similar peg on which to hang Articles 9, 10 and possibly 17. It would therefore be possible to direct the jury. I think the Judicial Studies Board might need to produce some assistance about how to do that, but it might be possible to introduce to the jury's mind the concepts in the European Convention. They would then be able to take them into account. What they would make of them is another matter. Nevertheless, it would be properly placed before them.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Baker of Dorking, that there is a similar problem when one is dealing with obscene publications. The test there is the tendency to deprave and corrupt. As a judge, one is not allowed to explain any further what that means. Juries look with glazed eyes when the direction is given to them. That is all you are going to be told. You have to decide on that basis. That is what the statute says.

A similar situation is going to arise when they are confronted with Articles 10.1, 10.2 and, possibly, 9 and 17, of the European Convention. I believe that there is a serious technical problem here, which needs to be thought about.

One last thought before I sit down is that we also need to account for the degree of certainty. Article 7 of the European Convention—I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Lester, who mentioned this—requires that people should know what it is they are allowed and not allowed to do. Nobody knows why a jury decides anything. You can get nothing out of it except the facts of the case. This is going to be a very difficult problem for compliance with Article 7. I hope the Minister will think about these matters; perhaps we can return to them later.


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